Message to the Ukrainians

[lenire]

Olexiy,

Quote.....
"And DON'T EVEN TRY to compare fascism and orange revolution, like Russians do"

I think you should slow down. To suggest that I would make such a comparison is an insult to me that it would be difficult for you to recover from.

Len

[benda]

I called a subtle flattery your statement about my very very good English. You must be cunning or I don't understand why we are arguing. Wasn't that Churchill - one of your favourite people - who said: "Fascism contains the worst traits of communism"? Doesn't that mean fascism is worse than communism? About "fighting against fascism". I could blame you for thousands of Soviet lives (though Churchill knew that one English life is worth at least five Soviet because he could be removed only if many English perished, not Soviets) because you had to open the second front in 1943, not in 1944. Notice I'm not mentioning 1942 because I agree that would have been too dangerous. War is always risky so you can't say that we didn't have enough people - there was more than Germans had. I could blame West for allowing Hitler too much (that was Chamberlen, not Churchill). What did Chamberlen say when Czech Republic was occupied by Germans? "We will better sacrifice a small country rather than giving a trouble to great British Empire". An after all that British government has enough insolence to remove Stalin from the monument to the Three Allies in London. Can't you understand that's simply against the historical truth? That's an offence to all Soviet nations who suffered more than anybody, lost more than anybody and did more than anybody for the victory in that war.
Olexiy

[lenire]

Benda,

Quote.
"An after all that British government has enough insolence to remove Stalin from the monument to the Three Allies in London"

Again you are making sweeping generalized statements that are always too easy to refute, so lets get specific shall we.

About the above quote. Have you any idea how many Stalin statues and monuments have been removed in the ex soviet republics in the last ten years.

Ah yes, Ukraine. Somewhere dear to you. Some years ago Prince Charles came over to the crimea to dedicate a memorial to the British soldiers who died in the battle of Balaclava. The monument was erected at the side of the Warendorf road for all to see. Three years later the communists of ukraine, not wanting to insult Prince Charles, knew they could not remove the monument, but they didn't want all their people to keep seeing a British momument in the middle of their country. They came up with a very simple solution. They moved the road.
The monument now is in the middle of a vinyard and cannot be seen from the new road and there are no signs or any indication of its existance. If you want to visit it you have to climb fences to get there.

Surprising isn't it. The British government is not the only one populated by sneaky politicians.

Len

[Edited by lenire on 21st August 2005 at 00:38]

[lenire]

Quote,
"all Soviet nations who suffered more than anybody, lost more than anybody"

You have just got to stop making these sweeping statements.

I wonder if the above quote is because you faught harder and braver than the rest of us, or was it because.....
You were less prepared.
Your army was a mess and lacked discipline.
Most military training institutes were decimated by the revolution, and had not re-opened.
Those that had, trained forces to subdue the russian people, not to protect them.
Your army was very ill equiped.
No modern military equipment was available to them.


As if that is not bad enough...try these three.


Your generals (at the start) were useless, untrained, and inept.
The revolution had distroyed military order and loyalty.
"Your leader cared only for his power and did not care one bit how many brave russians he sacrificed."

Len




[Edited by lenire on 21st August 2005 at 00:53]

[benda]

I guess you didn't hear of Tukhachevskyi, Uborevich, Yakir, Eideman, Primakov, Putna, Blucher (not 1815, Waterloo). These are talented Soviet generals who were killed by Stalin. That's his fault, not the revolution's (I don't support October revolution but it's another thing). You're right when you're saying about army but you're sure that Stalin, party and Soviet people is the same thing. The war was won because of heroism of plain people, not communistic system. Even during the war we had talented generals like Rokossovskyi, Tolbukhin, Chernyakhovskyi. You had only Montgomery who couldn't make a cheeky decision and waited months before counter-attacking after El-Alamein. An example: El-Alamein - 230000 - English, 80000 - Germans. Kursk (if you've heard of it but I doubt about it) - 900000 - Germans, 1336000 - Soviets. Compare and you will know who won the war. Britain didn't have an army - she had only a fleet so if it wasn't on an island she would likely have fallen in 1940. If Hitler didn't allow Dunkirk - it would be an end for all land troops of Great Britain. England did almost nothing in 1941 - 1943, excluding Northern Africa. So you can't blame USSR. About the monument: but that British monument wasn't demolished. And don't you know that in 1853-1856 Russians and English were enemies, and in 1941-1945 they were allies? English and French politics against Russian empire was always treacherous and unfair. You had to use troops of England, France, Turkey to win that war. Russia lost it because of Nikolay I who was the worst emperor I think.
I guess you think I'm a fool and I'm afraid you're right. Because trying to convince British that communism wasn't the worst thing humanity invented is like trying to convince Italian that borshch is better than pizza.

[benda]

Ex-soviet republics really can demolish the monuments to Stalin because they were under communistic regimes and Stalin was a very cruel communistic leader. But Britain wasn't, Britain should have thanked Stalin for help Churchill asked after Ardennes. But instead of that they just remove Stalin from there. And don't say the army was a mess and lacked of discipline. It was disciplined more than English army I think. And you should know that there were many students, peasants, workers, women, children in the army because they defended their Motherland. So you can't say our army was a mess just because of that.

[lenire]

Benda,

I'm sorry but this is going from bad to worse. Each time I try to give you an option to look at things from a slightly different angle you fight back with misguided patriotism.

I made the point that all of your good generals were murdered by your leader and so at the beginning you had no good leadership. You agreed with this but then said you had good generals.

I said that at the beginning your army was a mess and lacked discipline. You acknowledged this but then said it was made up of peasants and workers so you cannot hold that against them. For god sake, all armies are made up of ordinary workers and peasants.

You said Britain did nothing between 41 and 43 except africa. So they did do something ...AFRICA. You obviously believe that it would have been wiser to allow germany to dominate the oil rich middle east.

Sooner or later you are going to become mature enough to understand and believe that it was not the USSR that won the war, it was not Britain that won the war, it was not America that won the war, and it was not india, Malaysia, Australia, Canada, and about thirty other nations and there survivors.

IT WAS ALL OF US TOGETHER.

When you are mature enough to understand that the study of history without any understanding of the "BIG PICTURE" is as mis-guiding as blind partiotism, then perhaps this discussion will be fun. You are quoting history in isolated facts just like both you and I were taught in school, and we both know that was a load of crap. If you want to continue this discussion without any understanding what the many allies were doing, why German troops were dispursed the way they were; what japan was doing,: what Turkey or italy was up to: why a second european front was not feasable before 44; why soviet troops at the beginning had no option but to keep retreating; and about twenty other controlliong influences: I would suggest you find someone who believes all he was taught in his good patriotic high school, to have your discussion with. I am done.

Len

ps. No one doubts how brave the ordinary russian was at that time, we are just confused why you think they were the "ONLY" brave people who faught againt tyranny.





[Edited by lenire on 22nd August 2005 at 22:09]