Question for Lilly, John and Others,

[B_Ungaro]

Greetings Folks,
The disintegration of Titos Yugoszlavia is a
big mystery to me. These people used to live together as brothers and sisters. Tito died,
and a short time later, these people were killing each other. It seems to me that on a count of three, each of the ethnic groups came out of the woods with large armies equipeed to the teeth, ready to fight. Who
paid for these weapons? Where did they come from? How did they organize without us knowing about it. Why do they hate each other
so much? Is it religion?

[Phillip]

To answer you question, I'd like to take you back 1994.

The soldiers of the JNA (controlled by Millosovich) belonged to the national force prior to the communist breakup; this ending of the Marshal Tito era forced a breakup amongst the inhabitants previously living together; with the Russian backed Serbs taking the leading role.

Factions grew matching the tension of the impending war, (based on this power inballance).

The conflict began with the JNA attacking the Muslim minority who were an undermanned poorly equipt army that found itself in a corner on its own. (All the while the world was still buzzing in the wake of the UN v. Iraqi "Desert storm"). This, coupled with the impact the arms embargo had on the already insignificant Muslim weaponry and the difficulties they were faced in receiving foreign aid, left them as easy prey.

Yugoslavia slid into a state of virtual civil war after Croatia and Slovenia declared independence from the Yugoslav federation on June 25.

By June 28 a "troika" of ministers representing the European Communities (EC) negotiated an ineffective cease-fire,

In effect, the Serbian fighters backed by the Serb-dominated JNA took control of one-fith of the Croatian territory. This lead to the justified suspicion that, Serbian President, Slobidan Milosevic was exploiting the crisis to establish the basis for greater Serbia.

Milosevic boycotted talks in Belgrade (Aug.4.) and all efforts at a withdrawal, or a cease-fire had failed. By this stage, hundreds of thousands of people had left their homes.

By December the Serbian offensive became so bloody and the EC's initiative so week, that an EC monitor said the EC's involvement was: "a cowardly army, fighting for no recognizable principle but largely, instinctively for it's own status and survival".

At this point the JNA still rejected Western involvement and regarded the situation as the responsibility of Europe. To this end, the UN followed the European example of manipulation by attempting to coerce the former Yugoslavians with promises of the recognition of their independence and the lifting of economic sanctions.

In 1995 the Dayton accords finally achieved an agreement which "commits the parties to end the war and to start building peace".

The Dayton peace accord was a carefully thought out plan, and it is an example of the west's intervention capabilities. This was only possible because of the widely held belief that war is unwanted.

After 1995 and as the ceasefire failed, renewed fighting began (Millosovich still trying to create the greatrer Serbia)- this escalleted to the current situation... (which you no doubt know)

The US threatened bombings more then once and was finally forced make good it's threats in the recent NATO bombing campaign.

At every step of the way nobody would have assumed that the events might grow to such proportions.

[Lilly]

Dearest Phillip and B.Ungaro,

Everything you wrote is so way off base.
There is so much misunderstanding.

This subject has been talked to death and would take forever to rebut and debate. I might as well cut and paste my comments from the russia boards. I just want to touch on a few of your comments as briefly as possible.

A little history lesson .
Prior to the break up, Yugoslavia with it's stockpiles and reserves of arms and weapons, that was unequaled in Europe, because they were ready to "call to arms at any given moment" was the fourth power in the world by readiness to go into war with anyone that attacked her from the outside.

For 50 years the doctrine of the brotherhood that was nurtured and cherished within Yugoslavia, was to stand together against any foreign invaders. The call or motto was "Nikad Vishe" or Never Again.
Little did they know that the enemy would come from within. ......

When the break up began, each faction (and there were more than 3) took/grabbed as many arms as they could. In reality, the shooting began in Slovenia and it was left alone by the JNA because they were on the North-West fringes of Yugoslavia and there was a small Serb population there.

The unrest continued in Croatia, because of a large population of Serbs in the Krajina region (500,000). The region was important to Yugoslavia. At that point Bosnia didn't even factor in controversy at the time.The UN picked Sarajevo as the headquarters of operations to monitor the Croatian problem.(LOL!) Little did they know that they would be in the centre of the bloodiest civil war in Europe since WWII, and I stress CIVIL war, not a war of aggression from outside forces.

Slovenia and Croatia were given independance and after the muslim leader Izetbegovic won the election (crooked), he told europeans that he wanted independence. He was strongly advised by the British that if he wanted independence he would have civil war in Bosnia. Upon which he replied, "I know, but I have to do it".
On that basis he should be charged by the Hague for war crimes, because he knew of the blood bath and the costs that would follow.

The Serbian population in Bosnia (50% ) were against independence. Also muslims in the northern pocket Bihac under the leadership of Abdic were also against it. They knew the cost. Izetbegovic did not have a mandate given to him by the Bosnian populace to ask for independence, because he didn't run on the indepedence platform. He made promises of a better life...today we know what that better life is.

The historic fact is and always will be that the first bullet fired in Bosnia was by the Muslims against the Serbs at a wedding in Sarajevo. It was documented in a 5 part BBC documentary series. JNA didn't start shooting at the Muslims. If the JNA military brass had the balls after being given permission by Russia to take care of their domestic problems, because it was their own business,and if they used the JNA might, we today would still have the old Yugoslavia, even though the West would have their tail feathers in an uproar and squawk. Probably 99% of the population today would be better off.

An e-pal from Macedonia told me the other evening, that "we had a great country now we have principalities that call themselves countries, that cannot feed, produce, work or support their pensioners at the civil level." On top of that he blames the USA and the West for this, because they were responsible for the breakup of Yugoslavia.

The recognition by the West of Slovenia, Croatia as independent states under the arm twisting of Germany was the death knell for Yugoslavia. It was premature and Yugoslavia was not given a chance to save itself and by itself from the influence of subversive groups from outside the country.

Dayton peace accord only concerned Bosnia. You are talking Yugoslavia. I don't even want to touch that one.
If Tito was alive, and the circumstances were the same, he would have executed the leaders, and jailed 10,000 of their followers as enemies of the state. He would have saved Yugoslavia and saved 600,000 of the lives that were lost.

UNGARO dear, you asked about hatred. Everyone co-existed peacefully and everyone felt safe in the Federation of Yugoslavia. The animosity between the Croats and Serbs goes back to WWII when Croatia became a puppet for Nazi Germany, based on promises by Hitler of an independent state. When the breakup of Yugoslavia began, it was FEAR not hatred that began the chain of events that followed. If the Serbs in Croatia felt safe and equal citizens, under the Croatian law, no gun would have been fired. If all three factions in Bosnia felt that they would have been equal citizens in the new independent Bosnia, again no gun would have been fired. The most important factor in all of this is that fear made each ethnic group want to feel that their only salvation would be to stick with your own nationalities, because there were no promises made from any side that the Serbs would be safe on the Croat or Muslim side or vice versa.

There was mistrust from the previous war(WWII)when hundreds of thousands died because they belonged to different ethnic groups. Today crafty leaders fed on this fear to achieve their own goals.

The term Greater Serbia is over-used. Even the birds in the trees are chirping it. There is no base for it. Everytime Serbia is maligned, they use that phrase.
People, THINK about it; what Greater Serbia?.
Even if all the Serb regions were put together, it would be a country of 300 kilimeters wide and 500 kilimeters long. What is so great about that?

Ungaro:
This might concern you, being of Hungarian descent. Slowly there are signs of how Hungarian minorities in northern sections of Yugoslavia are being mistreated. It is a total fabrication, because I know first hand (have Hungarian relatives), and I have a feeling that plans are in the works for another WESTERN INTERVENTION. The table is being set for another misinformation campaign. Let us see what will follow. ...

In today's Yugoslavia, no matter what the press writes about, every citizen in the country, regardless of ethnic origin is an equal citizen under the law.That is fact.

So much for being brief. There is so much to write on this.

We don't know what we have until we lose it.

Regards,
LillyNomad

Forgive my ramblings, slept 3 hours; I haven't even had my morning coffee yet. Been up all night.

[Phillip]

Dear Lilly,

Promise me you will try to have relaxing day so that you can sleep well tonight - you need your energy

I have not much to say, but you forgot to mention Millosovich!! You made the JNA look like angles and made the factions look like they had equal power.

The JNA as I know it went on a rampage. If you can give me an example of where there is another formidable army in the area then I'd like to hear.

The recognition of independance and the cease fires and the Dayton peace agreements were all trying to subdue the fighting and this meant getting approval from Millosovich.
If there hadn't been such a power inballance I am sure these agreements could have worked.

Oh no - there goes your sleep.

Apart from that I agree with you and learnt heaps

[Lilly]

One can learn a lot from LillyNomad.She can also learn a lot too...

LillyNomad,
Green Eyes twinkling

Darn Phillip, I did it again. If you only knew what I wrote...xxxrated.

[This message has been edited by Lilly (edited 16 January 2000).]

[Phillip]

I just luv ya Lilly,

Your a full on, luscious lady, packed with fun.

*Kisses*

xxxeditxxx
arghhhhhh

[This message has been edited by Phillip (edited 16 January 2000).]

[Lilly]

Phillip, I didn't forget about Miloshevic. Wish I could though. The reply just got too long and I talked this subject to death on the russia boards.

You still have your assumption of the facts all wrong. CNN is not a good source.

Thanks for smooth words Phillip; back at ya.
Did you ever bite into a luscious ripened
peach, and felt the juices flow down your chin?

LillyNomad