Swede Vikings(Varangians) ancestors of Russians?

[belgian]

There is sound evidence that Varangians played a very important role in the history of Russia. Below you have a short summary of what happened. I have two questions
1. If Varangians were Swede Scandinavians who became quickly Christinas who were Slavs who remained Pagan for a while? Are they of the same ethnic origin?
2. Have anyone ever heard of Varangian mummies found somewhere?

"The city of Kyiv was founded on the bank of the Dnipro river which was the water route taken by the Scandinavian warriors and tradesmen to travel all the way down to the shores of Byzantium. The ancient chronicles called it ⌠the route from the Varangians to the Greeks■ (Varangians-members of a Scandinavian people, mostly Swedes, who settled in East Slavic lands in the 9th century). The fact that Kyiv commanded this very important trade route contributed eventually to its rise and predominance over other East Slavic towns. It is a well-established fact that the Lavra Pechersk Monastery was originally founded in the caves (pechery - ⌠caves■ - in its name is evidence of that) but the cave mentioned in the quoted Chronicles had evidently something to do with the Varangians who played a significant role in the early history of Kyivan-Rus - Ukraine (in Western tradition Varangians are better known as Vikings or Norsmen). There was even a controversial theory, much discussed in the nineteenth century, that it was only thanks to the Vikings that ancient Kyivan-Rus - Ukraine emerged as a mighty state of Eastern Europe. Another theory treated the Vikings in Kyivan Rus only as usurpers and plunderers. As it is so often is, the truth lies somewhere between these two extremes.
Eric the Red Beard, William the Conqueror, Oleg the Oracular are remarkable figures of the world history. The Vikings-Varangians▓ role in the early history of Kyivan-Rus - Ukraine had been a particularly significant one. They exercised their influence mostly in the military and religious spheres. The Varangian and Slavic warriors took their military oaths separately because the Varangians were already Christians and the Slavic warriors were still pagan (incidentally, the texts of both the oaths have been preserved for us in the chronicles). Scandinavia had gone Christian two centuries before the Eastern Slavs."

[V-G]

Just one question, why is the topic " Swede Vikings(Varangians) ancestors of Russians? " if you are talking about Kievan-Rus?

[ricardo]

There is sound evidence that Varangians played a very important role in the history of Russia. Below you have a short summary of what happened. I have two questions
1. If Varangians were Swede Scandinavians who became quickly Christinas who were Slavs who remained Pagan for a while? Are they of the same ethnic origin?
2. Have anyone ever heard of Varangian mummies found somewhere?

No one knows if they were Varangians, they mainly came from an area (today Stockholm) however they would call themselves Russ a word that apparently derived from the Finish Ruotsi.
These Vikings had trading posts around lake Ladoga and the city of Novgorod. But they continued their journey southwards with smaller ships and finally reached Kiev. King Vladimir (converted to Orthodox religion) was the first (of viking family) king of Kiev. Kiev was a good strategic place to proceed on to Constantinople and Persia.




[Edited by ricardo on 4th March 2002 at 21:56]

[belgian]

The web master should provide the system with a new server, it's the 3rd time I try to send a reply and each time I had to type all again, this one will be shorter as I'm not sure if I'll be able to send it.
Concerning the question on the title of my topic, I'm not a historian just a curious person. To the best of my knowledge there is no consensus about the origin of slavs and their relation with Varangians. I wanted to choose a title that would attract curious persons and begin a useful discussion about the origins of Nordic people. Fortunately it had been the case.
As Swede, I understand the people who lived where Swedes live now ie Scandinavia. Curiously many Swedish friends don't accept a common origin with Russians. As you stated the word Rus seems to be derived from the Finnish word Ruotsi (meaning red?) so they claim that Scandinavians who founded the Ukranian cities were in fact Finnish. I don't agree with them. Genetic analysis can be helpful to identify linking between population rather than speculations or archeologic findings. That's why I'm asking for Varangian mummies. No misunderstanding I'm not looking for the origin of races but try to find evidence that we are more closely linked to each other than some historians want us to believe. Here are some opinions about the origin of slavs from MacKenzie and Curran. A History of Russia, the Soviet Union and Beyond, 4th Edition. :


Modern historians have, however, come up with their own theories for the origin of the "Rus" and the first feudal state on Russian soil.

The "Norman Theory" of the origin of the Rus is inspired by the Primary Russian Chronicle and makes three main claims: 1) the words "Rus" and "Variag" (Varangian) are Scandinavian, 2) the Rus and the Swedes are identical, 3) the latter founded the first Russian state in the Novgorod region.

The Soviet "Anti-Normanists" made their own arguments: 1) the unreliablility of the Primary Russian Chronicle, 2) the first state in Rus arose due to socioeconomic changes among the Slavs (shift from primitive communism to feudalism in parallel with the changes in Western Europe) long before the Varangians arrived, 3) the Rus were a south Russian tribe living along the Ros River that gave its name to a loose confederation of tribes and the land they inhabited.

However, the "Anti-Normanists" point out that the old histories are not entirely reliable and the Soviet scholars used archaeological evidince to argue that the Slavs had established a feudal state before the arrival of the Varangians.

[zhuk]

Scandinavian counts (or Knyazy) really made the first attempt to establish a feudal state with a center in Kiev.
Althoug this theory was opressed before by many soviet historians, who tried to state that Russian counts were of local origin.

But most of modern serious authors agree that it were variags, who were the first counts (knyazy of Kiev).
They and their closest soldiers (so called DRUZHYNA) they all had skandinavian names. Like Oleg, Igor, Olga and many others.
Now it is obvious, that the first state was established by variagy.

[ricardo]

Certainly I'm not authority in history but your Swedish friends assertions belgian are not really relevant to historical facts that the Vikings of that region of today Sweden indeed had a lot to do with Kiev I forgot but remember to have read a book on this subject published by The Uppsala University about 20 years ago.
This is further confirmed by zhuk as he points out that The Soviets supressed the idea of Vikings having anything to do with Ukranian and Russian history so most of the discoveries and depth of Viking involvement in Russia and Ukrania is beign unearthed today in places like Ladoga, Novgorod, Bielorussia and Ukranine.

Referring to the name ruotsi indeed means red in Finish so it comes as no surprise that the colour of the sails the Variags ships were red.

[belgian]

I forwarded your interesting replies to my Swedish friends. Here is an interesting result of genetic analysis.

From the Independent: 3.4.01.
Recent DNA studies have thrown up some interesting information: firstly that the present day male population of the of the Orkneys is more akin to Norwegians than to other British males.

Whilst in Iceland, it appears that many of the male settlers obtained their wives from the British Isles. The article suggesting that there was a thriving trade in British women when Iceland was being settled between 870ce and 930ce. The article suggesting that the women may have started out as either slaves or concubines: however whatever their origin, the article leaves no doubt that the modern Icelander owes much to the introduction of British women.

I think that a similar analysis in Russia may be helpful to verify such interesting hypotheses:

from The Times

"Thor Heyerdal of Kon Tiki fame is is engaged on new research at the ancient city of Tanias near the Sea of Azov, in an attempt to prove that the Vikings originated in what is now the Cossack region of Russia. This of course reverses the popular theory that it was Viking traders who opened up what is now Russia, and settled such centres as Kiev. On the other hand it would agree with those Russians who have long thought that the Vikings originated in Russia. Whilst giving a new validity to suggestions in the Icelandic Sagas that the Vikings originated in the steppes and were lead to Scandinavia by the historical personage we now see as Odin!

In my