The Crisis of Morality and Sex Industry Legalization

[Kathy]

You are welcome for the link, sjoyce.

Max, I don't know if sexual exploitation is considered acceptable. Perhaps prostitution is, but that is a different matter. Part of the problem is corruption of authorities. But then, there are thousands of illegal brothels holding sex slaves in London, in Israel, in Italy, and in a variety of Arab countries. There may be far less corruption, but really, there is indifference in dealing with the problem.

Yes, I read about the Kyiv demonstration. It was aimed at the wrong audience.

[Max_the_Highlander]

I know in some European countries prostitution is legalized completely, though it's not common rule. For example it is legal in Norway, Holland, Germany. The reasons are low spirits and need to "decriminalize" and regulate the prostitution, if it exists let they at least have medical cards, pay taxes etc.

In Ukraine we have only few supporters of legalization and among then there are cops who know perfectly this problem can't be fought in every even the most civilized society.

However, the question is not it should be legal or illegal... the core question is - is prostitution moral or unmoral?

At the moment public opinion in Ukraine treats all kinds of sexual exploitation as deeply unmoral so I'm sure it will be legalized not soon. Nobody among politicians will dare to raise the question and to shift the project through the Parliament because it will damage their reputation in the eyes of public opinion.

Ukrainian laws only changed previous criminal punishment for women to easier administrative punishments as short arrests and mild fines. However, the pimps are still punished criminally and very strictly.

Ironically, the article says about beauties who offer escort on streets of "Paris - London - New York" giving it as kind of independent "small business". In reality the prostitution is highly criminalized area, every street, bar or club is under control of certain gang or pimp. To offer service right on the street or in club they just have to cooperate with pimps and so the things seem to be much crueler.

Btw, the patriotically decribed migration of escort from Warsaw to Paris, from Moscow to Warsaw, from Bangkok to Moscow also is something hardly true. The Moscow is the most expensive city in the World accordingly to few rankings and so the sex services are priced accordingly. The Warsaw is just not economically fit enough to attract spoilt Moscow escorts.

Same is about mass migration of escort from Thailand to Moscow. The Russia has draconian anti-immigration laws directed against Asian as Chinese or Thai, besides the Moscow is much closed city where you can’t move free without bunch of registrations. Of course they import number of original Thai massagers to salons but any mass immigration is impossible.

So the only realistic moment in article is migration of escort from Poland to "Paris - London - New York".

As about the fraudulent deportation of Ukrainian women to various illegal brothels so public opinion treats them as innocent victims. The Poland and Turkey are primary destinations of sex slave trade. The money girls have they are very miserable or they have nothing at all, as usually criminals steal their documents. The newspapers are loaded by stories of this kind and every time the criminals are punished. The women also are smarter knowing the proposition to work as waitress in typical Central Europe country may mean another brothel. However, the new cases happen every few months.

Of course, if we want to fight the sexual exploitation the first target should be people who turn it to professional business. Unfortunately, it brings such big money to pimps and "promoters" of all kinds that our society will have hard time nearest years.

[MichaelB_PL]

First of all, I think that a line must be made to distinguish forced prostitution and free-willed prostitution - IMO, the latter is actually very common.

As for Poland, it's not illegal to commit prostitution, but it's illegal to gain material gains from prostitution done by another person.
At the same time, it's decided that it would dishonorable for the Polish state to benefit (take taxes) from prostitution, so it's not taxed and AFAIK it cannot be a valid subject of a legal deal.

In Warsaw, there are several brothels which advertise freely - paper adds are being inserted under the window cleaner part of parked cars, there are also websites like odloty.pl, with prices, adresses, photos, etc.

One of my friends is a very frequent customer, an addict, I think - and a few times I did go with him, I also talked with him about this issue, here are my reflections and things I've learned:

1) Most people seem to be polarised in this regard - they seem to either have a very negative opinion, or a very positive opinion - they are either strongly condemning or strongly condoning it.

After receiving some slight practical experience with the issue, I must say my impression was not a definite one, I'm neither disguisted nor enthusiastic about it - I found it somewhat pleasant, but not really satisfying, it was definitively not a strong experience for me - neither strongly negative, not neither strongly positive.

2) The above made me ask myself some questions - like "Why do some people
feel such a strong need to make use of such services, while I find it a somewhat boring/uninspiring thing?" - and I think I did find some kind of answer in the differences between me and the brothel-going friend of mine.

I'm a person who might be called "sensual" or "emotionally and sexually perceptive" - by that, I mean that I'm generally "in touch" with both my own emotions and the emotions of others - and to some degree, I can simply feel what the girl is feeling - and my experiences with prostitutes have been largely shaped by that - I could feel that to some degree, these girls live in a sort of emotional shells, distancing themselves from that what they are doing - for them, it's a sort of an artificial, cold professional thing...

My friend, on the other hand, is largely distanced from his own emotions and I think he is trying to emotionally compensate for a few traumas he had in his life - I think he is not in touch with his emotions, but at the same time he needs some kind of release from the tension that unconsciously builds up inside him - so he goes to brothels literally to help himself forget his emotions, and it's like drinking for him (he does a lot of that also).

Looking from that perspective, it seems to be about traumas, about being not in touch with one's emotions - I think that prostitution is largely a reflection of problems it's customers have.

3) An Ukrainian theme in this is that a large percentage of prostitutes in Warsaw seem to be Ukrainian, especially girls from Western Ukraine, who are actually quite intelligent and do not seem to be victims of any kind - I remember one prostitute I spoke with, her name was Victoria and I think she was from somewhere around Tarnopol or Stanislawow, she had higher education - ironically, pedagogical and it looked like she was actually somewhat content with what she was doing.

4) My "brother-going-friend" is friends with one of the prostitutes and she told him how much she is earning - it amounted to a very, very good salary as far as Warsaw is concerned - and Warsaw is generally richer than most other places in Poland, and Poland itself is richer than Ukraine.

That girl, having no education and no other useful talents, is earning as much as a proficient Warsaw IT or law specialist, earning more than 80-90% population of Wasaw does - I think that this is very important - IMO many of these girls, Polish or Ukrainian, are simply doing this because they actually want to do that and earn a good amount of money, as opposed to getting a low-paying job and struggling for living.

[Max_the_Highlander]

First of all, I think that a line must be made to distinguish forced prostitution and free-willed prostitution - IMO, the latter is actually very common.

What is the “forced prostitution” exactly? Obviously these are numerous cases when Western-Ukrainian women are stolen from Ukraine to Warsaw brothels. But this is called sexual exploitation, not prostitution.

Prostitution is never independent anywhere because the girls are controlled by pimps in every situation. May be they can give online application on sites as Roksa.pl but they can’t work independently on streets and clubs. This means Polish justice just closes the eyes on obvious criminal activity pretending the problem of pimping does not exist.

“Paying for sexual activity is illegal, as is pimping; however, selling sex is not illegal. Due to a crackdown on prostitutes who work along major thoroughfares and at truck stops, much of the prostitution industry moved to brothels, massage parlors, or agencies offering escort services.” (The GULLY report, 2004)

In Warsaw, there are several brothels which advertise freely - paper adds are being inserted under the window cleaner part of parked cars, there are also websites like odloty.pl, with prices, adresses, photos, etc.

Strange but “it's illegal to gain material gains from prostitution done by another person”. Are those brothels the cooperatives or closed joint stock societies? If not their owners gain material benefits from prostitution like conscious organizers and promoters of business. Meanwhile you confirm they advertise freely.

Obviously Polish justice just doesn’t react on obvious criminal activity because it gives good money to owners and many corrupted officials.

Looking from that perspective, it seems to be about traumas

The crises of morality, both public and private, and low spirits are the best explanation possible.

An Ukrainian theme in this is that a large percentage of prostitutes in Warsaw seem to be Ukrainian, especially girls from Western Ukraine

Can you give us the origin of such percentages because as usually you can’t support your words by anything valid? Exactly who have made such sociologic researches or they are only your imagination as usually?

Our newspapers and news websites are loaded by cases when Ukrainian women were stolen to Polish brothels fraudulently and violently. There tenses of cases but I will give the link to Uzhgorod resource which says about theft of three young Ukrainian girls to Poland, to private brothel of “pan Zenek”. The article states the rich German tourists make the lion’s share of Polish brothel clientele, of course the reasons are relative anonymity and cheap prices.

UA-Reporter

“Women and girls were trafficked to and through Poland from countries such as Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania, Belarus, and Russia. Ukraine was the largest single source of foreign women trafficked in Poland. Women from Bulgaria tended to be from the Turkish and Romani minorities. Of the estimated 7,000 prostitutes in the country, 2,100 (30 percent) were estimated to be of foreign origin.” (The GULLY report, 2004)

“Poland is a destination country for trafficking in Bulgarian women it is a transit country for women from Ukraine, Lithuania and Belarus. At least 3,500 Bulgarian prostituted women are in Poland and more than 1,000 from Ukraine and Belarus (source: Polish Deputy Interior Minister). In 1997, police registered 200 cases of attempted smuggling of women to Western brothels.” (Piotr Bazylko, "Poland, Ukraine to fight sex slave industry," Reuters, 16 July 1998)

who are actually quite intelligent and do not seem to be victims of any kind

Without doubts there are a number of Ukrainian voluntary prostitutes in Poland, however doubtfully they work alone, likely Polish pimps promote and protect them while corrupted official powered closes the eyes.

In Poland, there are no specific laws governing the smuggling of aliens. (Tass, 1995, "Trafficking and Prostitution: The Growing Exploitation of Migrant Women from Central and Eastern Europe," IOM, May 1995)

Poland itself is richer than Ukraine

Extremely doubtful off topic statement since Kyiv is one among the most expensive cities of Europe, surely it is more expensive then Paris in terms of living costs. In region where I live though many items are priced… 50-200% higher then in Kyiv.

I know the companies sell in Ukraine twice bigger number of cars then in Poland and this is sure-fire indicator of overall incomes. However in many rural regions short-term work immigration to any Central-European country seems to be attractive. For women in most cases except the contracts with reliable firms it leads to sexual exploitation or other criminal activities in low spirit corrupted countries.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

What is the “forced prostitution” exactly? Obviously these are numerous cases when Western-Ukrainian women are stolen from Ukraine to Warsaw brothels. But this is called sexual exploitation, not prostitution.

I ment to distinguish two kinds of situations - when a woman is "stolen", and generally forced to do prostitution against her will and when she chooses to do prostitution out of her free will (for financial gains).

In the previous post I've mentioned a (Polish) prostitute who is a friend of my brothel-going friend... she enjoys the money and does that out of her free will.
The ironic part is that she was beaten for a reason connected with prostitution... but not for denying to be a prostitute, but for being one - her boyfriend got out of jail and got extremely enraged, he was angry at her for doing what she does.

With the Ukrainian prostitute Wiktoria I've mentioned, it looked very much the same - she was intelligent, somewhat happy, she was in no way some terrorised victim, it looked like she chose that path willingly.

Prostitution is never independent anywhere because the girls are controlled by pimps in every situation.

And it's supposed to be criminal, but... normal citizen pays taxes to the state - the prostitutes instead pay taxes to the pimps - I do not find anything truly shocking in that.

Strange but “it's illegal to gain material gains from prostitution done by another person”. Are those brothels the cooperatives or closed joint stock societies? If not their owners gain material benefits from prostitution like conscious organizers and promoters of business. Meanwhile you confirm they advertise freely.

It would be hard to lock them up, because it's hard to prove them anything, and from legal point of view, things like renting things which are used for criminal activity is not the same as taking money directly.

Obviously Polish justice just doesn’t react on obvious criminal activity because it gives good money to owners and many corrupted officials.

Rather than that, most people in Poland simply do not find this issue to be a very significant one.

Can you give us the origin of such percentages because as usually you can’t support your words by anything valid? Exactly who have made such sociologic researches or they are only your imagination as usually?

It comes from personal experience - 3 visits and somehow 2 selected girls turned out to be Ukrainian - might be coincidence, but I think it's not.

Our newspapers and news websites are loaded by cases when Ukrainian women were stolen to Polish brothels fraudulently and violently.

It's of course possible, but I can't relate to that, my information suggests that most of them do it willingly.

Without doubts there are a number of Ukrainian voluntary prostitutes in Poland, however doubtfully they work alone, likely Polish pimps promote and protect them while corrupted official powered closes the eyes.

Yes, their work is controlled by Polish criminal organisations.

Extremely doubtful off topic statement since Kyiv is one among the most expensive cities of Europe, surely it is more expensive then Paris in terms of living costs. In region where I live though many items are priced… 50-200% higher then in Kyiv.

??? Carpathian Ukraine is more expensive than Paris and Kiev then?

[Max_the_Highlander]

I ment to distinguish two kinds of situations - when a woman is "stolen", and generally forced to do prostitution against her will and when she chooses to do prostitution out of her free will (for financial gains).

This is self-understandable but international reports and publications give certain numbers for “trafficked” women and it means they were bought for money. In 99% of cases they didn’t suppose they will work as prostitutes, they were stolen fraudulently. The reason why they look happy is as usually fear of pimp savage.

And it's supposed to be criminal, but... normal citizen pays taxes to the state - the prostitutes instead pay taxes to the pimps - I do not find anything truly shocking in that.

But state mendaciously declaring it as crime in reality does nothing with it, justice is silent – this is shocking thing… may be not in your country.

It would be hard to lock them up, because it's hard to prove them anything, and from legal point of view, things like renting things which are used for criminal activity is not the same as taking money directly.

Do you think it’s hard to disclose the brothel from “legal point of view”? A bit of video and audio record with transition of money after sex job and anyone can go to prison. Instead we see following:

1) Brothels exist publicly and advertise freely.
2) Pimping is prohibited and brothels are organized by pimps who gain money from sex trade.
3) Nobody does anything against them, because they don’t want to do, because they are corrupted and involved.

This only supports the picture of corruption and massive paybacks to interested officials and that’s why prostitution in Poland flourishes and grows.

Rather than that, most people in Poland simply do not find this issue to be a very significant one.

Oh yes… just look on situation on the whole… Poland is built up with brothels where Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian, Lithuanian women are held and sexually exploited and all existing laws are broke. The 99% of Bulgarian, Ukrainian, Russian, Lithuanian women are trafficked, smuggled violently which is hard international crime.

The Poland turned to center of Europe sex slave trade and women from Ukraine, Russia, and Byelorussia are trafficked and transited to Germany and other western countries through this biggest transition and sex trade point.

While on surface the prostitution is prohibited, the country even has not laws for smuggling of aliens which allows this massive sex slave trade. Justice does nothing because everyone is corrupted and gains money.

And people just do not find this issue significant, of course.

It comes from personal experience - 3 visits and somehow 2 selected girls turned out to be Ukrainian - might be coincidence, but I think it's not.

You should go to brothels at least 3 000 times to have realistic numbers... or you just ordered there Ukrainian girls intentionally. The reports state the 30% of Polish prostitutes have foreign origin. Among them Bulgarian women make the majority while Ukrainian and Russian women are transited to richer buyers on the West.

It's of course possible, but I can't relate to that, my information suggests that most of them do it willingly.

No, the 99% of trafficked and smuggled women got to Polish brothels or farer fraudulently… this means they were told about civilized works as waitresses, seamstresses with good salary… after crossing the border they were turned to sex slaves without names and documents.

??? Carpathian Ukraine is more expensive than Paris and Kiev then?

I know nothing about the “Carpathian Ukraine”, we have only Transcarpathian Region here.

The real estate, cars, rent of accommodation, foods, clothes are more expensive in Kyiv then in Paris. Moreover, the real estate in Kyiv sometimes is more expensive then in Dubai.

The foods, clothes, many kinds of home, office and professional technique, officially distributed cars are more expensive in Uzhgorod then in Kyiv.

[Kathy]

Max, the price of real estate in Kyiv is artificially inflated. Ukrainian politicians can't launder their money, so they're buying property. That is what is driving the value up.

Michael, I think you give too noble a cause to some prostitutes. I don't know if it is "emotion", but rather, you are likely someone who wants a partner who has feelings for you. Your friend does not.

Max, many women do choose to become prostitutes. I don't think anyone can deny that. Is is immoral? I don't know. I think it is emotionally and physically unhealthy, and it is not what I would want my daughter to do. I think you are right, in one sense, that parasites are always involved in prostitution.