English for Russian?

[stepanstas]

Three of you laid into someone for asking a simple question. I see no insult in her question - you all could have answered in the same way and put her straight without making a song and dance out of it.

Well we are trying to put her straight. Whenever i reply to posts limilar to this, i always have a point which i try to derive. Ukraine is not the same as russia. I know that you along with others will say of course not, but in my opinion, if there were no people like me, the acceleration of what you described below will increase.

You dont belive that you can have a say in what goes on in England, even thought that is your only citezenship. This is why it is hard for you to understand. I feel differently. maybe i will never move back to Ukraine because i am slowly forgeting the language, but i will always come to visit. As i said, i am Ukrainian, so are my parents, and their parents, or at least they were. Whichever way you may feel, in my opinion, it is my duty to do what i did above. I will not back down just because you feel that we atacked Sofica. We may have done that, but i was trying to prove a point, and it was proven.

I don't see why you think America should cater for Spanish speakers and yet Ukraine should not cater for Russian speakers. The only significant difference I see is that the percentage of people in Ukraine whose first language is Russian far exceeds the percentage of people in the USA whose first language is Spanish. Logically, that places an even greater need for the Russian language to be officially catered for in Ukraine

Here is the thing, you stated something, and now you think that i am the one who stated it. A few replies back you said:

I don't understand what you are driving at here. Whilst English is the language of administration in the USA, the authorities in many areas have recognised the rise of Spanish and the necessity to cater for those whose English is not adeqaute.

That is my whole point behind this. No country should cater for any other one, that is if we are refering to the same type of catering. So there is no explanation needed for the rest of what you said.

What limit? The numbers of people speaking any given language is determined mostly by their family background - I don't see how you can change that other than by ethnic cleansing.

My personal perception is that those with a Russian heritage in Ukraine feel less Ukrainian and more Russian these days - they feel alienated and are unlikely to cooperate with any moves to preserve the Ukrainian language. It looks similar to the situation in Latvia. The Language and Citizenship laws introduced there have induced a resistance mentality in the local Russian population - it is now Russian and not Latvian that you hear on the streets of Riga. I have seen this difference in only six years of visiting the country.

I am not saying that the families background should be changed, because it cant be. My key words are respect, and understanding of difference. russian is even spoken in a lot of Ukrainian schools, that is what i hear, so if we dont stop it, children think its ok. Refering back to the USA example, what if Hispanics went to schools in the USA and the teachers spoke Spanish to the students.

I dont know why it is so hard for you to understand.

[Cesar_Augusto]

Refering back to the USA example, what if Hispanics went to schools in the USA and the teachers spoke Spanish to the students.

Hello,

In the future it will have to be like that but you can't compare a very powerful and spread language with more than 450 million native speakers and a different reality with minor languages. Spanish pressure is overwhelming. Furthermore, it's been there for more than 100 years before English speakers.

Efforts to reduce Spanish in USA have been vain, unsuccessful and that's what always happens whith those policies trying to get rid of other languages unless you deport people form their lands.

On the other hand, ladies should be always treated in a kind way.

Greetings,

CИsar

[JG]

I do understand the sensitivities (although I am certain most Westerners have absolutely no knowledge of this). I do understand that in many parts of the FSU, there is deep resentment about many policies of the Soviet Union and a desire among many to "get even".

However, you have highlighted the problem yourself - there was a massive influx of Russians in to Ukraine. Looking at the voting map of the last election gives a pretty good idea of the reality now. People in Eastern Ukraine feel more Russian than Ukrainian, especially since the Orange Revolution. There is an "us and them" mentality which seems to get ever stronger.

If the oppressive measures of the Soivet Union did not wipe out the Ukrainian language why would oppressive measures against the Russian speaking population work now?

All I am saying is: use more carrot and less stick.

[henrylee100]

On the subject: I simply don't think Ukraine is the best place to learn Russian, eastern Ukraine might be an OK place to practice Russian but if your Russian is basic you'd really get it all tangled up even in the east what with all the signs and official docs being in Ukrainian.

Ukrainian was a forbidden language in the Russian Empire at times (read about the Emz Ukaz). Under the Soviets, there was a deliberate policy of Russification, an attempt to wipe out the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian identity. Millions of ethnic Russians were moved into all parts of Ukraine. Ukrainians who received a state education were compelled to serve 2 years in a republic other than Ukraine to intensify their use of Russian.

is that how they teach history in Ukraine these days. I dare say if the soviets had really deliberately attempted to eradicate Ukrainian as you suggest they would most certainly have succeeded at it. There never existed any official policies to russify Ukraine, there were isolated attempts at russification by some party functionaries appointed to Ukraine but at the very same time throughout the soviet history there always existed a powerful enough lobby within the party that was quietly ukrainizing even as their opponents were russifying. When my mom lived in Lutsk in the 1950's they had 4 Russian schools, all the other schools (abt 15 ) were Ukrainian, t.e. all subjects were taught in Ukrainian. The school my mom went to was Russian but Ukrainian was a required subject, every student had to take it. so sorry but I'm afraid that what you're trying to sell as history here is in actuality little more than cheap UPA propaganda.

To overcome half a century of Russification in Western Ukraine, and more than 150 years of the same in Eastern Ukraine, a concerted effort to encourage Ukrainian as the language of the people must be undertaken. People always take the path of least resistance, so policies which force them to speak Ukrainian should be adopted. In a generation, people will then forget this was a major issue. Ukrainian, in essence, must be foisted upon the populace, whether they like it or not, until the majority accept Ukrainian as the state language of Ukraine.

You can't just choose a language you like best and make it into the language of the people. Why do you want to "force" people to speak Ukrainian, are you insane or what? I mean this is total insanity to me, you can't go forcing people to speak a language, you'll get rebellioins and an eventual disintegration of the country. The Crimea is already autonomous, whenever Yushchenko was coup d'eta-ing in Kiev with his orange hordes and rock bands a couple of eastern regions openly said they'd proclaim independence if push came to shove is that what you want? Think about it how come the swiss can live so peacefully together in spite of the fact that some of them speak German, some French and still others Italian. I'll tell you how - they respect each other and when you want to "force" people to do things it means you have no respect for them as human beings and nothing good can ever come of it. Just go and reread what you wrote:
Ukrainian, in essence, must be foisted upon the populace, whether they like it or not, until the majority accept Ukrainian as the state language of Ukraine.
what do you mean whether they like it or not? I can't believe you can be that mad. The Russian Empire tried to eradicate Ukrainian, thanx in large part to the fact that Lemberg remained in Austria Hungary and to the efforts of such true Ukrainian patriots as Shevchenko and Lesya Ukrainka it didn't work now tell me do you think that forcing Russian on Ukrainians was a good thing? Imho it was a totally stupid and evil thing to do, now how can then forcing Ukrainian on Ukrainians be any better?

As for your assertion Soviet policies did not wipe out the Ukrainian language, you are incorrect. This is exactly the problem. This is why, in regions across Eastern Ukraine (Western Ukraine had far less time for Russification to be successful) Ukrainian was not the language of the majority. The only thing that saved Ukrainian from disappearing completely was the large number of Ukrainians who lived in rural areas until the 1970's and the strong retention of Ukrainian language in Western Ukraine.

You're totally mixing things up Ukrainian was eradicated in urban east Ukraine long before the soviet union, the official zsarist policies basically banned it from being used. If anything it was during the soviet period that thanx to the efforts of people like Dovzhenko there was at least created a measure of awareness of the Ukrainian language in the east.

Historically, Ukraine has always been a battleground for foreign factions, its territory conquered, its peoples subjects of foreign powers. One of the factors which unites nations, at least at an earlier level of political development, is language. I believe it is imperative for Ukraine, as a nation, to develop a strong sense of Ukrainian national identity. And for the time being, that includes pushing strong policies of Ukrainization.

Language and national identity are different things as I said earlier Switzerland is one good example, now if you look at Germany where some regional dialects differ from each other almost as much as Russian differs from Ukrainian or Belorussian and think about how both the folk from Byern and those from Berlin consider themselves equally German in spite of their dialectical difference you might be able to see that where there is a will there's always a way to make the national identity transcend languages.
Forced Ukrainization can never do any good because forced is the key word there and in fact contrary to what you suggest I believe it can actually shatter the emerging national identity of Ukraine to smitherins. Ukrainian should be promoted but never forced.

[stepanstas]

First of, i would like to say welcome to the people who just joined this topic. Im glad to see you here.

Secondly, the long reply tend to really make people sleepy. I am force to read them since i am in this conversation (and the 2nd most talked about person here).

Thirdly, i see now that nobody really agrees with anybody. Everybody has a different view, and there are many facts. That is what must be followed.

Nobody likes to read these long facts, but they must be brought out.

First of, i would like to highlight some things stated by Kathy (who i completly agree with (so far ))

The EU has basically stated that Ukraine will not be granted entry any time soon. Given that, Ukraine should develop independent policies on language. If people wish to speak Russian, that is fine, but the Ukrainian language must be remain the first language of the state.

That is the major problem. henrylee100, nobody is forced to speak Ukrainian, but if you choose to live in Ukraine, then you have to respect the Ukrainian language, and make sure that it remain the first language of the state.

There is no point of saying this twice or saying it in another way. That says it all.

Also, if you would like to put forced in there, are people forced to live in Ukraine. Maybe their families were there, but they dont have to be.

I dont want this to come out the wrong way, i just want to bring up this point.

Finally. Why did russia not succed in making everything russian?
Old people mainly. They knew the truth, and did not get fooled by all the lies. The hid in their cave/houses/farms/etc. historical things. Crosses, books, paintings, writings. If they hid them well, they were not yet found. And when it was safe, they showed it to their families. And it passed down.

[henrylee100]

That is the major problem. henrylee100, nobody is forced to speak Ukrainian, but if you choose to live in Ukraine, then you have to respect the Ukrainian language, and make sure that it remain the first language of the state.

I'm not sure about that, I for one heard of laws being passed in places like the Crimea that demand that all court cases be heard exclusively in Ukrainian meaning that the majority of plaintiffs and defendants in that area won't be able to understand the proceedings. If that isn't forcing Ukrainian down people's throats then what is and who's going to respect that language after laws like that get passed? And as for Kathy's message - she explicitly stated that in her opinion Ukrainian, in essence, must be foisted upon the populace, whether they like it or not (see her message above). That kind of attitude I will never subscribe to.

Now as for making sure that Ukrainian remains the first language, I honestly don't understand how that can be that important, it would seem that some people even find it more important than the wellfare and comfort of the people or the unity of Ukraine. It's like they've taken this linguistic issue and are now making it into a cult that they seem to be willing to sacrifice just about anything for. To me this makes no sense whatsover especially with the sort of situation that exists in Ukraine today where there are more or less clear cut borderlines between the regions that are predominantly Russian speaking and those that primarily speak Ukrainian. This last fact means that Ukrainian as a language can survive just fine without anybody having to have it foisted upon them against their will. Ukrainian is not a rare language on its way out that needs to be preserved though even if that was the case it would still be a big question whether or not its preservation made any practical sense, but the way things stand now it's alive and kicking in places like Lviv, Lutsk, Rivne, Chernovtsy and a number of other north western regions, now if 90% of the people in Luhansk speak Russian I don't see how that poses a threat to Ukrainian and why these people in Luhansk need to have Ukrainian shoved down their throats so that eventually they may get so fed up with it that they'll get together on their central square all clad in blue and proclaim independence from Ukraine. There's no point to this policy of forced Ukrainianization of russian speaking regions. And not only that: this policy is destructive and potentially dangerous.

Also, if you would like to put forced in there, are people forced to live in Ukraine. Maybe their families were there, but they dont have to be.

Don't be rediculous, where do you propose they go and why should they? And why is it that the eastern Ukrainians should leave? Far as I know the west is less populated than the east maybe it would then make a lot more sense to encourge the western Ukrainians to all relocate to Canada, after all as you point out the fact that their families lived there for generations doesn't really matter.
Sorry but it did come out the wrong way and you know why it did - because it's wrong so it can't ever come out any other way.

Finally. Why did russia not succed in making everything russian?
Old people mainly. They knew the truth, and did not get fooled by all the lies. The hid in their cave/houses/farms/etc. historical things. Crosses, books, paintings, writings. If they hid them well, they were not yet found. And when it was safe, they showed it to their families. And it passed down.

you're oversimplifying things here a bit. And now if Russia failed at russifying Ukraine, why would modern Ukrainian pseudo nationalist hawks manage to fair any better at at russifying the east against the will of the people that live there?