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Old 14th April 2015, 20:06
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Hannia - Дуже дьякою for the valuable detail. As you know, due to the prevalence of Russian imperialistic history, it's so difficult to get at the true origins of the Moscali.

There's a question which doesn't get enough attention, which is whether the Moscali are slavs at all, setting aside their wholesale appropriation of our history. With admixtures of Mongolian and Turkic strains to their Balto-Asiatic origins, it seems to be fair to say that they're the least slavic of all of the slavic peoples; at least in Eastern Europe. However, I wonder how much value any sort of DNA analysis might have, since so many waves of Russians have swarmed into Ukraine, while so many Ukrainians have been forcibly exiled to distant and inhospitable lands.

Last edited by Neward Thelman; 14th April 2015 at 21:07.
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Old 14th April 2015, 20:31
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Yes, Russians are Slavic people. Obviously, not everyone - Russia is full of ethnicities, but let's be honest. People are trying to deny it because they want to deny anything that Russians are saying. But you know - no matter what bad we can tell about Russians, they are definitely not idiots.

Is every American of Germanic origin? Every American is descendant of British citizens who left Britain to create new world? Same goes with Russians - they colonized most of the continent, however they killed less native people. This is why some "mixing" is/was frequent.

It happens sometimes, you know. Male + Female = Child. If male is Slavic and female is, let's say, Altaic the child would be _____? Slavic? Altaic? Please define

What about DNA, please check out the haplogroup R1a1. In Europe it is most frequent among Slavs.
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Old 14th April 2015, 21:35
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pontius View Post
- no matter what bad we can tell about Russians, they are definitely not idiots.
Disagree. Strongly.
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Old 14th April 2015, 22:30
Pontius Pontius is offline
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It's your choice to be prejudiced and seek for any possibilty to disagree with facts. Idiots do not "visit" the space, idiots are not brilliant in chemistry, idiots do not create a weapon that will be in use for almost 70 years, and idiots are never a threat to the world.

Yeah, definitely Gagarin and Mendeleyev were stupid. It is your choice to think that. And my choice is to think that any kind of discussion with you may be difficult to me, so I should stop here. Especially when you have written two words as a response to my both answers. Period.
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Old 15th April 2015, 00:26
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Are you Russian?

I think it's unfortunate that you taken a sudden hostile tone.

I'm prejudiced? What does that make Putin, Lavrov, Medvedyev, and so on down the chain to the ordinary Russian gaspadin passed out on the pavement from drinking industrial solvents for the purpose of inebriation?

Speaking of which, there was, in fact, a corroborated story a few years back about a Russian gang which had kidnapped an American who was in Russia on business. Obviously, coming to the conclusion that American business alliances would benefit both sides - but Russia far more - was beyond the calculation of those "brilliant" Russians. Counting their chickens before the eggs hatched, the Russian entrepreneurs proceeded to get blind drunk, celebrating the millions they expected to soon acquire. Eventually passed out; at which point, the American simply got up and left. End of kidnapping.

Currently, in a link posted on this forum, a news item reported that as noted above, Russians are, in fact, drinking more samohon and even - this really puts the icing on the cake - toxic liquids, because the price of vodka's gotten a bit high in Russia.

Of course there've been many brilliant Russians. One need only think of their contributions to the arts and sciences. But, even looking at those phenomena more closely, one finds that there's a limited time frame in which the efflorescence of creativity occurred. Chiefly, it grew during the 19th century and into the 20th. Even then, the Russians come up short when compared to the scientific breakthroughs that were routinely achieved elsewhere [hint: the USA]. They couldn't come up with the atomic power, though they tried and tried mightily. Finally, they had to obtain nuclear secrets by resorting to theft.

While they beat the USA to space, they soon faltered. Their equipment simply wasn't up to the extreme demands of interstellar exploration. Had the US not decided to harshly curtail its support and spending for NASA, had the US continued to go full bore into space as it had during the Kennedy administration, the Russians would've been left in the dust. But, even with all of the compromises that US policy made in that area, the US still managed to produce a potential weapon that the Russians couldn't match, and which put the fear of Jah into their Commie hearts - specifically, the Strategic Defense Initiative, which, despite all of its alleged glitches, brought Gorbachov to Washington to plead for the US to stand down. In the end, the point is, the US had the brilliance to create everything that the Russians didn't have.

Those are just high-level highlights. In everyday life, Russian products were known to be pathetic. They didn't even change over from tubes to transistors until late in the last century. Russian television broadcast equipment would routinely breakdown - comically so. Indeed, Russian incompetence was, until recently, well known and a joke everywhere.

Dipping back further into their history, it's well known that Russia remained isolated from the rest of the world for, well, centuries. While Western Europe was undergoing the burst of rebirth and creativity known as the Renaissance, Russia was mired in backwardness, poverty, illiteracy, and filth. Don't take my word for it. Look it up. There are plenty of well known accounts of visitors to Russia during the 16th century who couldn't believe the almost depraved backwardness prevalent in Russia. There’s even a famous painting depicting the grimly wretched life in Russia at the time. One historic account contrasted the sharp difference between the comparatively advanced and civilized culture and life in Ukraine as compared to Russia [I don't have the link at the moment, but I'll find it and post - interesting reading].

And, Russian folk stubbornly clung to the primitive ways. The slightest change upset them, as is demonstrated by the Old Believers, who couldn't stand even some mild corrections to their corruption of Orthodox faith practices. Even more acute was the opposition to Peter the Great's innovations - innovations for them, that is - just common sense stuff the rest of the world. To this day, some Russians still curse the "corrupt Westernizing" practices, foreign to the "Russian soul" the Tsar forced on them. And, ‘force’ is the word. Had he not used all of the absolute authority of the Tsar, it's unlikely that any of Peter the Great's improvements would've had a snowball's chance in hell of succeeding.

Culturally, the Russians absorbed everything they could suck up from the countries they conquered - especially Ukraine. As I said above, until the 19th cent, they proved themselves to be a singularly incapable and uncreative people. But, even in the 19th century, their poets, authors, composers, painters, etc., hoovered up Ukrainian culture like crazy. Russian composer after composer went on the hunt for Ukrainian melodies - and they proudly used them without even hiding the fact. Indeed, the aesthetic of the day was to deliberately mine the Ukrainian countryside and take everything for use in their works. Tchaikovsky, who did a fair amount of borrowing from the Ukrainian songbook, was in fact, excoriated by other composers for not taking enough folk material.

Things got even worse in the 20th cent. At one time or another, the Russians claimed to have originated everything - Alice in Wonderland [I'm not kidding], the works of Shakespeare, the electric light bulb, etc., etc. The famous story of the Soviet Army stealing German water faucets to bring back to Russia, thinking that the faucets would magically produce running water for them [another thing they didn't have - and apparently still don't - recall the restrictions on toilet use during the Sochi Olympics] is just more of the same Russian mentality.

You need only to look at the vast expanse of Siberia to see how inferior the Russian mind is. Wow – what a statement. I know. That's a very, very un-PC thing to say these days. Axe me if I care. The truth is that if that land were under say, oh...American control -if it were American land - it'd be a thriving, productive - and protected - territory, enriching the lives of millions around the globe. Instead, what've they done with it? What? Used it to exile Ukrainians [and others], and ravage and pollute whatever they touched with almost berserk homicidal intent. Lake Baikal?

Of course, nobody's perfect. No one can be. But, when a nation and its citizens continue to threaten not only one country, but the rest of the world, and they've shown themselves to be less capable in so many measures; less humane, and most of all, insatiably imperialistic, I don't feel the need to treat them with kid gloves. In fact, the gloves are off.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 15th April 2015, 01:59
Hannia Hannia is offline
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Quote:
Pontius :But you know - no matter what bad we can tell about Russians, they are definitely not idiots.
The Kremlin has been calling Russians "useful idiots" for a very, very, very long time.

Gagarin was one of those useful idiots. He was short enough to fit into the space vehicle and was far from being brilliant. Like the monkey that preceded him, he was merely the first (human) in space...maybe. He did die mysteriously??? Rumor has it that he was silenced.

I agree w/NT. Russians are somnambulatory. Too much sleep does make the brain woozy.


Quote:
Same goes with Russians - they colonized most of the continent, however they killed less native people. This is why some "mixing" is/was frequent.
I have a problem w/that statement, because of the gene flow direction.

Modern Russians are in fact Eastern Slavs w/exposure to Baltic-Finnic influences, which were tied into the Germanic tribal bloodlines. The Russian genetic legacy also indicates to be the result of two large admixtures. Both were from invasions of peoples from the Asian steppes, the Oroquen, a Tungu-speaking people of northern China and the Mongol Empire Era invaders.
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Там де ╓ Укра╖нц╕, там ╓ Укра╖на!

Hannia - Hania - Mighthelp

Last edited by Hannia; 15th April 2015 at 13:03.
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Old 16th April 2015, 02:21
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Paging through the previous posts here, I've become aware that Pontius is no ordinary internet cowboy shooting from hip, but he is, in fact, a university professor [do I have that correctly?] - and as such, a default member of the intelligentsia.

In light of that, his reaction of abhorrence to my statements about Russians makes sense, and it stands as a testament to his character and integrity. Certainly, I can see how such postings of intolerance might - and should - strike him as nothing more than typical incoherent ravings of an internet troll.

Nevertheless, I think my remarks and convictions are fully justified and on-target, and here's why.

Muscovy - and right off the bat, I think it's correct to use their precise historic name, rather than the one they appropriated from Ukrainian history - has always been a destructive enemy of Ukraine, differing over the centuries only in the severity of its actions. From Boholubski's unprovoked attack against Kiev, sacking and burning it in 1147; to its parasitic role in subjugating and further weakening the remains of Rus while acting as an agent of the Golden Horde in the wake of the 1240 Great Catastrophe; to their continued parasitic exploitation of Ukraine with the signing of Pereyaslav in 1654; accelerating the suppression and virtual occupation of Ukraine right up to the 1917 revolution, and then continuing in an unrelentingly barbaric manner during the reign of communism - the Moscali have represented one thing to Ukraine: that they were and are a raging, implacable beast of an enemy, fiercely bent on the total and utter destruction of Ukraine and anything Ukrainian.

Considering how many Ukrainian lives the Russians have shattered and destroyed over the centuries, it's a wonder that there are any Ukrainians left. It's said that St. Petersburg was built on the bones of the Ukrainian workers used in its construction. The mind reels at the sheer number of Ukrainian people exiled to Siberia, never to return, only to perish in the frigid wastes; or, if they somehow manage to survive the decades of their fractured lives, to be resettled in the distant east, or some foreign country [such as Kazakhstan]. And, I don't even want to touch on the most monstrous genocide in all of human history, so incomprehensibly evil is its dimensions.

The unbridled Moscal hostility towards Ukraine continues to this very day - to this very moment - as every night's news cast dutifully reports. From their topmost leadership down to the humblest citizen, every one of them intone the same mantra: there never was, there is not now, nor will there ever be such a thing as Ukraine.

In the face of such relentless enmity, such brutal hatred and violence, the only possible response is retaliation in kind and in even greater force. The real world isn't a pleasant turn-the-other-cheek Sunday school, especially when your very existence is at stake.

But, in the midst of all of this, I've found a curious phenomenon taking place, and it's happened for a long time. Despite Russia's totalitarian society, whether under the Tsars or under communism or even today; despite its association with the most inhumane nations in the world - such as North Korea; despite its sponsorship of state terrorism in the recent past; despite everything - everything - somehow, Russia gets a pass. There seem to be literally armies of apologists around the globe who are bent on excusing every barbaric act Russia commits. Every other country is blamed for Russian crimes - especially the USA. It was Mongol/Napoleonic/Nazi invasions of Russia that have left the poor, innocent thing so traumatized that it can only react with force and violence to protect itself, they say. It's the USA's push to bring NATO to Russian borders that made Putin invade Ukraine. Poor, poor Moskva.

Crap. You can just hear the Kremlin belly-laughing at the gullibility of the West. Sure, they're saying. If you Western twits want to believe that gibberish - then sure. We Moscali are about to reconstitute the former borders of the Soviet Union because...yeah, that's right…because of Napoleon and the CIA. Yeah. That's it. It's not because we're a rapacious, land-hungry pack of insatiable imperialists, bent on taking over every country in sight [especially Ukraine]. No, no, no. It's because of that NATO thing. Yeah. That’s it. We Moscals are just so, you know...insecure...so really, really insecure...because of that Hitler, that we have to KILL Ukrainians and cozy up to terrorist extremists in the Middle East.

And then there the flip side to all of that. The stinging killer part. When it comes to Ukraine, nobody gives it the slightest break. Not a nudge, not even a nod. Any and every little fall from human perfection's trotted out as if it's the most horrendous act ever committed in all time, from the Big Bang to the present. Any little imperfection's magnified to astronomical proportions. Ukraine did this, Ukrainians did that. Even worse, Ukraine's treated as if it –not Russia -is the big, massive, nuclear aggressor; as if it's the enemy of the world.

I'm sick of it. I'm sick of reading every dweeb Tom, Dick, and Harry's anti-Ukrainian internet rant. So, I fight the Moscal with total force and zero sentimentality. Screw politically correct, academically impartial tolerance. Screw that. When you're fighting for your life, you're either end dead or alive. In that fight, I aim to win. And, my fight and my hope is an independent, strong – and I mean STRONG – Ukraina, taking its place among the free nations of the world.
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