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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 8th April 2015, 00:03
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Civility is the key to civilized behavior.

It's curious that there's a Ukrainian accent when a Ukrainian attempts to speak Polish. Many Western Ukrainians of the interwar generation were fluent in both languages, but I wonder how much of an accent they may've had. Most certainly, you can hear a Russian accent if Russians speak Ukrainian, or even in the speech of Eastern Ukrainians.

The Polish community in the United States is large. In Chicago, it's massive and thriving, with many, many different generations of immigrants and children of immigrants active at all levels of community. But, I find the newly arrived immigrants, rather than the nth generation assimilated folks, to be the most interesting. They're the ones who bring a Euro sensibility with them.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 9th April 2015, 03:09
Szary Szary is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannia View Post
I understand that perfectly, as my lineage includes Vohlynian Ukrainian, Czech, Tartar, Halychanyn Ukrainian and one GGrandmother, who was Polish. My Maternal Grandfather was fluent in German, as his very best friend was a Mennonite.
Hannia, What? we both share Polish bloodlines?

I knew there had to be a reason why despite your harshness towards me, I still like you!
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 9th April 2015, 13:41
Hannia Hannia is offline
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I must say that my Polish GGrandmother (Baba Mazurka) is frequently cursed by some of the female members of the family. It seems that the only contribution she is remembered for is passing on the gene of the thick agrarian ankle.

Let's not get "derailed" and get back to the subject of the thread.
===================
At the end of the 10th century, the first codified language of what is Ukraine today was Old Church Slavonic, also known as Old Macedonian - Old Bulgarian. In that same time frame Latin was the first literary language in what is Poland today.

Ukrainian is only lexically close to any of the West Slavic languages, including Polish. When it comes to syntax and grammar they are very, very far apart.

Szary, just like you and I are...


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Last edited by Hannia; 9th April 2015 at 14:17.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 12th April 2015, 10:05
Pontius Pontius is offline
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Neward Thelman, I think there is one major reason. Western Ukrainians in the past used Polish very often. During Second Republic of Poland there were two official languages: Polish and German. So in official cases even in Ukraine Polish was obligatory. They simply had more connections with this language. On the other hand, more in the past, during Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, official languages were Polish and Latin. And Ruthenian in Lithuania (to the end of 17th century) which is mostly present-day Belarus. City of Lviv for example was not Lithuania, but Poland.

Today Polish language is not official, Ukrainians do not speak this language, they do not have to. And as Hannia mentioned, there are only few similarities between Polish and Ukrainian.

First of all, Ukrainian is East Slavic language, while Polish is West Slavic. These two languages share some things mostly in vocabulary, but pronunciation is different - this is why Ukrainians have an accent when they speak Polish. And it is definitely natural, it appears also when Poles speak Ukrainian. Accents are also present when Russian speaks Ukrainian (both East Slavic) and Czech speak Polish (both West Slavic). Language is always changing, some linguistic experts say: "Language is alive", because of its changes. Lastly I was listening to the music, where are used quotes from the past (mostly 2nd World War). Poles are speaking different there, because then we had different linguistic rules. It is the same language but has different pronunciation. And that is why elder people are speaking somehow "archaic" compared to the youth.

Polish and Ukrainians has no same roots - they are only both Slavic languages. Hm... I'll do it in more detailed way even though 80% of these information are irrevelant ;P

We have Slavic languages divided onto "families". These are: West Slavic, East Slavic and South Slavic. I'll avoid speaking about the last one, as this family is present only on Balkans (natively, of course).
These families are also divided onto groups, but not in case of East Slavic.

West Slavic:
1. Lechitic
2. Lusatian
3. Czecho-Slovak

Lechitic
1. Polabian (extinct) languages
2. Pomeranian languages (Kashubian, spoken in Poland and Slovincian which is extinct)
3. Polish languages (simply Polish language, and Silesian by some people considered as different language, by others as a dialect)

Lusatian
1. Ponashemu (extinct)
2. South Lusatian
3. North Lusatian
4. West Lusatian (extinct)

Czecho-Slovak
1. Czech
2. Slovak
3. Knaan (extinct)

In case of East Slavic we have simply one major "ancestor" which is Old East Slavic. From Old East Slavic came other languages like:

1. Ruthenian (extinct)
2. Old Novgorod
3. Belarussian
4. Russian
5. Ukrainian
- Rusyn

As you can see, Ukrainian language has nothing to do with Polish. Polish language was before Middle Polish, Old Polish, while Ukrainian is not even West Slavic. It is normal that people will have an accent, even if in some ways they are similiar.

Reason is simple. You speak foreign language, but you use your native phonetics. Exceptions are people, who were very focused on learning foreign language. For example, when I speak English after 2,5 years of studying it in college as my subject, my pronunciation is better when you compare me to a guy was learning English in school "because he had to". People are mostly focused on learning grammar and vocabulary, they want to be understandable. They care about pronunciation later (if they care).
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 14th April 2015, 06:43
Neward Thelman Neward Thelman is offline
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Thanks for the clearly laid out analysis, Pontius. I've seen the article showing that Ukrainian has more words in common with Belarusan and Polish than Russian, although the I wonder if that's still true, given the intense use of Russian in Ukraine, and what the regional variances are.

I've found that I can understand conversational Ukrainian. However, if a lecturer begins using a wider vocabulary and more sophisticated sentence constructions employing more advanced linguistic rules, I begin to lose the thread.

With Polish, I can understand simple remarks and sentences if they use familiarity loan words. When the sweet old-country local baba neighbors speak to me in Polish, they lose me fairly rapidly after "Dobre vyechur".

Russian sounds like a foreign language, mostly unintelligible. Unfamiliar words, unfamiliar grammar. The sound of it, with it's yowls and peculiarly formed vowels such as "u" and "i" seems odd.

Of the alleged 'Rusyn' I think I've heard, mostly what I think was Boyko, sounded exactly like mountain-country Ukrainian, in exactly the same way one finds American English varying in Appalachia and the deep south. Vowels and stresses were exaggerated. For example, "Ukrayinske" was pronounced "Ooo-KRAN-skeh", and so on. There seemed to be more Polish loan words. It was nowhere near a dialect - more of a regional accent,

The tiny bit of Serbian I've heard is unintelligible.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 14th April 2015, 12:54
Pontius Pontius is offline
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1-2 years ago I've found this picture, someone shown it on Slavic forum. It shows mutual intelligibility between Slavic languages.

https://robertlindsay.files.wordpres..._continuum.gif

You may find it helpful. Personally, once I was speaking with a Czech guy when we were playing one game online. I was speaking Polish, he was speaking Czech - we understood each other without problems. Obviously, it is easier to understand written message, though in many cases it is still difficult. My sister on the other hand was speaking this way with a Slovak friend, also without problems. Due to this picture, Poles and Czechs understand each other in 87%, and Slovaks in 85%.

When I was listening to Belarusian music (with lyrics), I understood most of it as well, as picture shows it gives 80%. Even though it is different linguistic family. I am only surprised, that according to this research, I should understand Russian a bit more than Ukrainian - well, I definitely cannot agree with that statement. I would say that a Pole may understand Russian in circa 50%.

I also heard from Belarusian girl that she is able to understand Ukrainian language without problems either.

On the other hand this picture shows something a bit different.

http://i.stack.imgur.com/HwyPg.jpg

I believe "lexical distance" is shown in %. It means that affinity between Polish and Ukrainian is 65%-74%. While between Ukrainian and Russian is 50%-64%. It would mean that Ukrainian is closer in lexical matter to Polish than Russian. And definitely close to Belorusian.

And what you said about "dobre vyechur". It means "good evening" and is written "dobry wieczór" in proper Polish.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 14th April 2015, 17:41
Hannia Hannia is offline
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NAME OVERTAKEN: old Rus' (now Ukraine) & new Rassiya (ex Muscovy / now Rossia)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDmiifw6wB4
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First bearers of the name Rus were Scandinavians (Finns still call Sweden Ruotsi) who in 10th century passed this name for Ukrainians (known as Rusyns). In 1721 Rossia, the Greek name for Rus was adopted as official name for Russian empire (now known as Rossiyskaya Federatsiya) and now Russians call themselves "russkiye" (ADJECTIVE, while Ukrainians used a NOUN rusyny / rusyns). Russians never called themselves with a noun rusyn but always with adjective form russkiye (very UNUSUAL among other Slavic nations who all use nouns as selfnames in Slavic). This adjective form initially meant simply "Orthodox Christian" or subject / citizen of Kyivan Rus state (medieval Ukrainian empire, dominated by Rusyns-Ukrainians). Moscow didnt exist then. In the beginning Moscow was a Finnic Merian village (first mentioned in the middle 12 th cen). Name Moscow means "bear mother" (Moska-ava) or "cow water" (Moska-va) in Finnic Merian. Around the city emerged a state called Muscovy, Tsardom of Muscovy, it medieval ruler Ivan Kalita was direct successor of Golden Horde khan (state founded by mongols / tatars). Hence the derogatory name Russians use in daily speech for Ukrainian is khokhol (mongol word in its origin). All Russians from minister to a cleaner use this mongol word "khokhol" when they speak about Ukrainian. Muscovy grew occupying neighboring lands and in 1721 was renamed into Rossiya (Rossiyskaya imperia) by Peter the Great, who is a father of modern Russia as it is. Hrushevsky, first president of Ukraine said that Moscow stole our name (Rus). The last Ukrainian hetman Ivan Mazepa (18th cen) said "They overtook our name". Ukrainians come from 7 Slavic proto-Ukrainian tribes (Polians, Derevlians, Carpathian Croats, Volhynians, Siverians, Ulyches and Tyvertses). While Russians come from 2 Slavic tribes (Viatiches and Pskov Kriviches - hence Russia is KRIEVIJA in Latvian) who mixed with 4 extinct tribes: Finnic Merians, Muroma, Meshchera and Baltic Eastern Galindians - all together formed ethnic Russians. In 15th century Moscow conquered Novgorod Slovenes (Slavic tribe whose state was Novgorod Republic). Now Novgorod Slovenes (though with a distinct dialect) are also part of ethnic Russians. Russification of Mordvins and Turkic Volga Tatars lasted for centuries and continues today - thousands of these are also ethnic Russians today. Belarusians (were part of medieval Kyivan Ukrainian empire, hence Rus legal subjects too) are mixture of 3 other distinct Slavic tribes (Drehoviches, Radymiches and Polotsk Kriviches) with local Balts (Yatviags), that is why their historic name is "Litvins" (Lithuanians), just as their folklore and folk costume are heavily Baltic. Hence Ukrainians, Belarusians, Russians, Poles all come from specific distinct Slavic tribes, who spoke different dialects and were quite different on genetic and cultural level too. In video everything is explained much better. Basically, modern Russia is a new state like the USA, with most of its lands being newly discovered territories and Russian ethnicity is very much multi-ethnic in its origin (Stalin was Ossetian for example, just as Obama is Kenyan), as is the case with Americans. Just as the USA, Russians adopted foreign symbols (coat of arms from Roman Byzantium, flag from Holland, the empire name Rossia from old Ukraine-Rus. Rossia (as the state is called now) is just a Greek name (not Slavic) for Ukraine-Rus. Russian language is conversation Church Slavic (which was Latin in the Kyivan state), just as English is the "international" tongue, lingua franca in the US. Moscow (founded only in the middle 12th cen) claims for being an ancient nation, are just as those of American mormons who claim that they came from the Lost Tribes...Among eastern Slavs, Russians are the youngest ethnicity, as humble Russian Orthodox clairvoyant saint of late 20th century I. Krestiankin called Ukrainians "Our OLDER brothers"! However this is not the case with sick Russian nationalists...unfortunately. Just as Romanians arent Romans (Italic Latins), so Russkiye (Russians) arent Rusyns (Ukrainians).

A small part of the Transcarpathians (due to isolation in Slovakia) that were part of the west Ukrainian (Rusyn) tribe of Carpathian Croats (just very minor part of it) failed to adopt the new name Ukrainian instead of old medieval name Rusyn (that survival move Ukrainians did to preserve their identity), are still using name Rusyn, and started to claim being a different nation from all other millions of Rusyns-Ukrainians from the mainland Ukraine. But this applies only to isolated Rusyn population in Slovakia and the US, as this is not a problem in Transcarpathian Ukraine, where only some 10.000 declared themselves as still being Rusyns and not Ukrainians. All other 800.000 Zakarpattya population declared themselves Ukrainians during last census and are very much patriotic too.
===================================================
===================================================
Monday, March 24, 2014
The great confusion of Russia explained! Origin of Rus and Ukraine! Spiritual health and living: The great confusion of Russia explained! Origin of Rus and Ukraine!
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