Litopy's UPA

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Serhii

Don't you know, Pan Michal, that Poles seriously believe they were saved by icon of Matka Boska Czenstochowska in 17th century from Swedish invasion. It means those Swedish troops were evil , weren't they ?

I'm afraid your perspective here is influenced by an emotional desire to avoid admitting that the pro-UPA site is a fanatic one.

1. The use of term "antichrist" As for Swedes being evil, they were invaders who were occupying and pillaging Poland - but they are NOT being called "Antichrist" in Poland. "Heretics" and "invaders" yes - but no sane Pole calls them "Antichrist"- do you see a difference?

2. The term "the sword of Jesus Christ" - there was no "sword of Jesus Christ" and Jesus did't fight anybody physically. Poles do have a tradition of belief in divine assistance in war, but Polish traditions do not contain a blasphemous content claiming or suggesting that Polish soldiers have something to do with Jesus or are emulating Jesus in any way when fighting.


What I'm shocked about is that no Ukrainian here has the courage and/or honesty to admit that the website is a fanatic and blasphemous one- I mean, aren't you people Christians?
I'd protest if somebody would say that AKs or WPs or LWPs actions were "swinging the sword of Jesus Christ"- but you guys obviously do not see Christianity the same way I do.



Michael

[dobko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

I'm afraid your perspective here is influenced by an emotional desire to avoid admitting that the pro-UPA site is a fanatic one.

1. The use of term "antichrist" As for Swedes being evil, they were invaders who were occupying and pillaging Poland - but they are NOT being called "Antichrist" in Poland. "Heretics" and "invaders" yes - but no sane Pole calls them "Antichrist"- do you see a difference.

Michael

You want to reread this and get back to me? Double standards, Mike? Again, Ukraine doesn't count in your views.

[dobko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

2. The term "the sword of Jesus Christ" - there was no "sword of Jesus Christ" and Jesus did't fight anybody physically. Poles do have a tradition of belief in divine assistance in war, but Polish traditions do not contain a blasphemous content claiming or suggesting that Polish soldiers have something to do with Jesus or are emulating Jesus in any way when fighting.


What I'm shocked about is that no Ukrainian here has the courage and/or honesty to admit that the website is a fanatic and blasphemous one- I mean, aren't you people Christians?
I'd protest if somebody would say that AKs or WPs or LWPs actions were "swinging the sword of Jesus Christ"- but you guys obviously do not see Christianity the same way I do.



Michael

Is your English that bad Mike? Divine assistance and having Jesus on your side... there's a difference?

Nobody sees anything as honest or as narrowly as you Mike.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by dobko

You want to reread this and get back to me? Double standards, Mike?

I wrote that Poles saw Swedes as "invaders" and "heretics", but these are more or less accurate terms - they surely were invaders and from the point of Catholic (and Orthodox) Christianity, they were heretics (being Protestants).

On the other hand, the UPA fan-site claims that "The army that as first in XX century heaved up the sword of Jesus Christ in the fight against evil and Antichrist - this is the Ukrainian Army! " - it's de facto slandering UPA's enemies by attiributing the term "Antichrist" to them, which BTW is de-humanisation of the enemy.

Is your English that bad Mike? Divine assistance and having Jesus on your side... there's a difference?

Not "having Jesus on your side", but describing the activity of a military formation as "heaved up the sword of Jesus Christ in the fight against evil and Antichrist", which suggest that:

1) Jesus Christ was a warrior and he can be emulated by fighting.

Truth: Jesus was never a warrior and never condoned armed struggle.

2) UPA soldiers emulated Jesus and acted accordingly to his teachings.

Truth: Jesus ordered people to love each other. UPA mass murdered civilians, which is hardly emulation of the former.


As for the religious elements in Polish military ethos, it might look similiar on the first glance, but there are strong differences:

[to avoid stupid comments, what I write below is my description of the point of view of traditional Polish religious-military ethos, not my own thoughts]

1) The enemy is not de-humanised, despite the claim of having divine assistance. The enemy is described as evil, but evil within human norms - "invader" and "heretic" are negative terms, but much less negative than "Antichrist" - because they do not take the term's target humanity away, "invader" and "heretic" is still somebody who is human and who is open to redemption.

Basically, war is seen not as a conflict betwen absolute good and absolute evil, but as contest between two groups of human beings, in which one side is right and the other is wrong (and is "evil), but it's not an absolute thing and both sides are perfectly human - the claim that God supported the Poles is not interpreted as "God supported us because they are [serving] Antichrist" - not at all, it is interpreted "God supported us, because our cause was just" - it's seen somewhat akin to winning a legal process.


2) Even though there is talk of divine assistance, there is no blasphemous claims about nature of Jesus like "sword of Jesus Christ" - when there is talk of 'divine assistance', nobody thinks that it actually has anything to do with God actually killing people - it's normally understood that God helps Poles "behind the scenes", showing them way to victory or providing some other way of indirect assistance.

That point of view does NOT claim that Polish soldiers emulate Jesus in any way - they do believe in him and are religious, but it is understood that Jesus did't fight anyone physically and that they are NOT emulating him.



BTW, what do you think about "The army that as first in XX century heaved up the sword of Jesus Christ in the fight against evil and Antichrist - this is the Ukrainian Army! " - so far you are attacking my statements but avoiding commenting on this...



Michael

[Unbreakable]

All this week Lviv and Ukraine is celebrating Yevhen Konovalec▓ jubilee - 115 years from his birthday √ according to Presidents decree.
Next week √ in Lviv National museum will be opened exhibition dedicated to prominent leader of OUN.
More info: http://www.gazeta.lviv.ua/articles/2006/06/15/15975/

This autumn in Lviv - on Bandery street - will be opened monument to Stepan Bandera √ construction has already started √ it▓ll be greatest of Lviv▓s monuments √ about 50 meters high.

We remember.

We know. - Who were heroes. And who were bloody occupants.

Our land. Our heroes.

Slava Ukraini! √ Geroyam Slava!

Slava Naciyi! √ Smert▓ Vorogam!

[Kathy]

I have a bit to post about the UPA/OUN issues, because there is a great deal of bad information posted on this and other threads touching on the issue.

Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now. However, I did want to note one thing. Michael, it is John-Paul Himka. Not John. Not Paul. Like the Pope (God rest his soul). Though Dr. Himka had the name before the late Pope.

I studied with Dr. Himka when I was in graduate school. He is, even among scholars, a true intellect. A leftist whose primary area of study was, for years, 19th century Galicia. I highly doubt you would be quoting many of his scholarly works on that period here.

In any event, I think you took Dr. Himka's letter out of context. He is referring to a very small part of the Ukrainian diaspora which writes in, and to, a couple of right wing papers. These views are not universally held among the diaspora, though I will not deny they exist. However, it was the children of these same individuals who first wrote of atrocities committed by UPA (starting in the late 1970's), and they did not shy away from the truth.

I have spoken to many DP's (and, relatively few were UPA members during WWII - most were taken to Germany forcibly). When visiting Ukraine, I asked relatives then in their eighties (God rest their souls) from Ivano-Frankivsk about the war and its aftermath. I also knew many Ukrainians from Poland who escaped in 1981/1982, and when their parents visited, I asked them about the war. None denied the slaughters, but especially on what was (and is) Polish soil, the battles between UPA and various Polish forces were, according to their accounts, extremely brutal, generating the irrational hatred that such slaughter inevitably brings. I don't think there was anything clear cut about what happened, and it often became "tit for tat". Those elderly Polish citizen Ukrainians remained extremely anti-Polish, largely because of their wartime experiences and the persecution they faced as Ukrainians in post war Poland. The son of one of these elderly men (a friend) had dated a Polish girl before he married, but only for a short time. His father threatened him with the story of Taras Bulba.

The whole issue is not black and white, as it has been portrayed here. However, I am not saying it is right. It is akin to the modern divisions in Iraq. I believe the denigration of nations, the denial of historical truths (by both sides) and the hatred exhibited demonstrates a lack of intellectual and spiritual awareness. But it existed and, based on the posts here, still does exist. Even in you.

I'll be back some time in the future to respond further.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

In any event, I think you took Dr. Himka's letter out of context. He is referring to a very small part of the Ukrainian diaspora which writes in, and to, a couple of right wing papers. These views are not universally held among the diaspora, though I will not deny they exist. However, it was the children of these same individuals who first wrote of atrocities committed by UPA (starting in the late 1970's), and they did not shy away from the truth.

Ok, maybe I do take Himka's article out of context as far as the whole Ukrainian diaspora is concerned, but the mechanisms he writes about can be easily spoted on this board...

Look at all the primitive ad-hominem attacks, look at outbursts of anger when somebody tells these people that OUNs (B) ideology was in fact a form of fascism, look how a certain poster accused me of being a Russian agent just because I write negative things about UPA...

None denied the slaughters, but especially on what was (and is) Polish soil, the battles between UPA and various Polish forces were, according to their accounts, extremely brutal, generating the irrational hatred that such slaughter inevitably brings. I don't think there was anything clear cut about what happened, and it often became "tit for tat".

I can't fully agree with that- while the Polish-Ukrainian conflict as such was indeed complicated and unclear, the OUN/UPA(B)'s actions single it out as the point of origin of most of the brutality of the conflict. Without these extremist nationalists (de facto: fascists), there would be still a Pol-Ukr conflict, but it would take a much more humane course.

However, I am not saying it is right. It is akin to the modern divisions in Iraq. I believe the denigration of nations, the denial of historical truths (by both sides) and the hatred exhibited demonstrates a lack of intellectual and spiritual awareness. But it existed and, based on the posts here, still does exist. Even in you.

Kathy, in many ways I appreciate the tone of your post, but I must object a bit to the "both sides are equally wrong" rhetoric - I'm not a saint, but I don't think my posts can be compared to the series of outbursts of irrational hatred and anger that can be observed on this board, coming from the Ukrainian 'nationalist' side.


Michael