Litopy's UPA

[dobko]

You show your age Mike.

Why don't you ever mention crimes against Ukrainians by the Polish? Do they not apply in you narrow views? You keep asking for a reply and yet when you get one, you chose not to answer with any facts of your own. Just he said she said because they were there B.S.!! Stop whinning and posting your hate filled spam about UPA and UKRAINIANS.

The UPA doesn't exist anymore and you weren't there when they did! Some people say they were criminals and others say they were heros. I believe that they (like any other oppressed people) had more than one side. You've stated your opinion several times here and on other boards to the extent that you are polluting other discussions and annoying members. Enough.

"No Pole I ever knew, and in fact no person of any other nationality."
Wow! You are a racist !

(this statement alone is enough to have you banned!)

[dobko]

There is a method to my maddness, Serhii.

[Unbreakable]

I think that main goal of this Mihal-PLBL is worsening Ukrainian attitude to Poles - in my case he almost succeeded √ but I just asked myself question √ ⌠Whose interest?■ √ and have seen bearded Kremlin comrade┘ (pay attention √ Putin▓s ⌠one-post-spammer■ - who previously was working on worsening Ukraine-Georgia relationships - now sing same song with Mihal-PLBL - Poland has presented bill to Ukraine)

Good idea to get rid of Mihal-BLPL √ he▓s not discussing here √ never using any logic - never replying to simple statements √ just manipulating with patches of anti-Ukrainian propaganda and spamming board with extremely long non-readable self-repeating nonsense┘

At least √ if moderators want to be over-patient (as Ukrainians always were to unwanted guests) √ they can create special thread √ for Ukraine-haters and Polish/German/Russian ancestors of bloody murderers √ where these will be non-stop whining √ attempting to distort the truth and mask scummy occupants and AK/SS/NKVD butchers under victim▓s guises┘

But truth is only one.

And it▓s very simple √

Our land. Our heroes.

Slava Ukraini! √ Geroyam Slava!

Slava Naciyi! √ Smert▓ Vorogam!

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by dobko

You show your age Mike.

Spare yourself the personal remarks.

Why don't you ever mention crimes against Ukrainians by the Polish? Do they not apply in you narrow views?

Quote from one of my previous posts in this thread: "blank spots like mass murders done by AK".

The UPA doesn't exist anymore and you weren't there when they did! Some people say they were criminals and others say they were heros.

Sure, some people may think that, different people may think something else -these are opinions, they are subjective - but I actually prefer historical facts.

I believe that they (like any other oppressed people) had more than one side.

Sure, UPA counted tens of thousands of people and it's obvious there were different people there - but the same goes about SS or NKVD - they had more than one side too.

You've stated your opinion several times here and on other boards to the extent that you are polluting other discussions and annoying members. Enough.

1. I did't pollute anything, it was Unbreakable who brought up the topic of UPA in the SS Galicia thread, I only responded to that.

2. What do you want to do? Prohibit criticizing UPA? Prohibit criticizing UPA specifically by me? Or what?

"No Pole I ever knew, and in fact no person of any other nationality."
Wow! You are a racist !

(this statement alone is enough to have you banned!)

1)This is a statement of a person really shocked with the level of blasphemous fanatism on a diaspora Ukrainian site- BTW I wonder why did you comment on my statement but did not comment on the content of the website I quoted.

2) I don't hate Ukrainians - I've met some of them IRL and most of them were good people. I'm happy to say that most Ukrainians are normal people who do not glorify fascist organisations.

BTW During the mass murders commited by UPA, many Poles survived only because their Ukrainian neighbours helped them escape - despite the fact that they were risking their lives by doing so -and I do remember that.






Michael

[Unbreakable]

Definition:

Fascism - modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy.
(Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 ╘)

Questions:

1 .Which European countries in 1920-ies √ 1940-ies could be defined as fascists?

2. Should political/military organizations and liberation movements fighting in these years against occupation of their Homeland by one/several/one fascist (by definition) country/countries be considered not only liberation ones - but anti-fascist?

3. Should activists/soldiers of these organizations/armies/movements be considered not only heroes of their Homeland √ but - as anti-fascist - also heroes of Europe and world?

Our land. Our heroes.

Slava Ukrayni! √ Geroyam Slava!

Slava Naciyi! √ Smert▓ Vorogam!

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Unbreakable

Definition:

Fascism - modern political ideology that seeks to regenerate the social, economic, and cultural life of a country by basing it on a heightened sense of national belonging or ethnic identity. Fascism rejects liberal ideas such as freedom and individual rights, and often presses for the destruction of elections, legislatures, and other elements of democracy.
(Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia 2005 ╘)

Questions:

1 .Which European countries in 1920-ies √ 1940-ies could be defined as fascists?

Well, not Poland and not Soviet Union. If you want to suggest that pre-WWII Poland was a fascist country at that time, read more about it -especially about who started the "Sanacja" political movement and on which side were the Polish "nationalists" from ND during the Polish mini-homewar.

2. Should political/military organizations and liberation movements fighting in these years against occupation of their Homeland by one/several/one fascist (by definition) country/countries be considered not only liberation ones - but anti-fascist?

Fighting with armed forces of a state dominated by a certain ideology does't make anyone automatically ideologically opposed to that ideology- and in many cases, forces sharing very similiar ideologies fought each other.

3. Should activists/soldiers of these organizations/armies/movements be considered not only heroes of their Homeland √ but - as anti-fascist - also heroes of Europe and world?

By that logic, we could call Nazi soldiers "heroes" just because they have fought against the totalitarian regime of Stalin, or call Soviet soldiers "heroes" just because they have fought against fascist forces like the Nazis or UPA - IMO it's not enough.


Michael

[Serhii]

Some recent news form Ukrainian media -

On 14th of June in 1891 ( 115 years ago ) was born Yevhen Konovalec' - a prominent leader of Ukrainian liberation movement. He headed OUN in 1927 and was a ' legendary person , symbol of Ukrainian resistance against all 4 occupants - Poland, USSR, Romania and Czechoslovakia '.

Stalin ordered to kill him and in 1938 in Rotterdam he was blown up by NKVD agent. Many historians say his death was fatal for all Ukrainian national-liberation movement. He was a politician of a new generation.

In such a way were killed almost all leaders of Ukrainian movement....

Both Poland and USSR were totalitatian countries ( = communism, fascism, polish chauvinism.... ) and widely used state terrorism agains Ukrainians. They label OUN and then UPA as terrorist, fascist ., etc organisations. They never mention what were their countries at that time. We weren't angels for sure , if yes - they would have killed all Ukrainians. We had to survive in terrible conditions which were made by them.

And it is absolutely understandably why many Ukrainians believe they

"heaved up the sword of Jesus Christ in the fight against evil and Antichrist"

Don't you know, Pan Michal, that Poles seriously believe they were saved by icon of Matka Boska Czenstochowska in 17th century from Swedish invasion. It means those Swedish troops were evil , weren't they ? Or maybe they were terrorist from Al-Quaida as you like to say

BTW , that holy icon was stolen from Ukraine ....

Pan Michal attacs Ukrainian diaspora - it is very good as for me. We all understand why .

And one more news -

'Ukrainian news' informs that in L'viv on Lychakiv cemetery will be opened
a special alley dedicated to prominent leaders of Ukrainian movement . There will be reburied Yevhen Konovalec', Stepan Bandera, Andriy Mel'nyk and others ( up to 80-90 tombs ) . They plan to do it till 2008 year.

Right decision I think, and an excellent answer of all Ukrainians ( in Ukraine and diaspora) to all those michals....