SS Galicia

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

That’s why I find it strange when Poles who killed civilian Germans cry about own killed civilians in Ukraine. Obviously, you can’t explain this.

1. I can - Germans started a war and started to forcibly misplace Polish civilians from their private property, this entirely different than murdering Polish civilians who simply lived in a area with Ukrainian majority.

2. Whatever AK did, it may be only used as accusation of AK, not a justification of UPA's deeds.

They were thinking within normal moral norms and could't understand the primitive mentality of UPA

Hmmm… occupants and gangsters with “normal moral norms”.

"Occupants" and "gangsters" is your subjective interpretation.

But Poles didn’t leave the Volun administration and the auxiliary police so repressions against the Ukrainians continued.

1. Nobody has the right to make threats and do mass murder of thousands of civilians because some elements of an ethnic group did't comply to these threats.

2. They were not "Poles" but "some Poles" - you speak of it as if every Pole in Volyn, woman and child was in German service - in reality most of these people were simply farmers.

Why? Polish fascist killed innocent Ukrainian women and children together with Nazi Germans. Why Ukrainians have not right to payback equally?

Because it was not an action which was controlled by the Polish society, or even Polish society in Volhynia.

Even a not very intelligent person realises that Poles had huge power advantage over Ukrainians in the 20s and 30s, and even despite the terroristic actions of OUN, Poles never decided to mass murder Ukrainians - they opressed them, but never crossed the line into genocide.

Why would suddenly the Polish society, or Polish society in Volhynia, choose to start mass murdering Ukrainians under German control, while they have't done that when it were the Poles who had the power?

Please give me documents supporting participation of exact OUN members in Jews massacres. The only incident they had been tried to involve in is Jewish massacre in Lviv. However revealed SBU archives opened it was NKVD fabrication.

Otherwise, you prove you are liar (which is obvious anyway).

1) Ukrainian police in German service took part in the Holocaust and the Ukrainians who were later to join UPA had to participate in those events if they were in German service.

2) These "call you a liar" rhetoric is ridiculous coming from you - the main line of all your posts is lying by selective resistance against evidence.

Polish policemen were confusing UPA partisans and Ukrainian women and children - these are two completely different things.

Ok, so they've should've had punished the policemen, they were serving the country Poland was at war against.

Please submit any document supporting it or you’ll be accused of lie. I mean your documents should support participation of certain OUN people in definite anti-Jew actions.

So what do you think, what were these Ukrainians doing exactly in German service, who do you think rounded up the Jews and robbed their valuables?

Previously, I've posted a link to a AK report which decribed how happy were the Ukrainian policemen who managed to get a grip on some Jewish property, while helping the rightful owners get transported to death camps.

Fair revenge for Ukrainian women and children killed by Polish fascists who participated in German repressions.

"Fair" according to the moral standarts of "Tutsi", "Hutu" and "Ukrainian" African tribes... oh I'm sorry, the last tribe is supposed to live in Europe.

And who cares?

Tutsi, Hutu and Ukrainians do not, obviously.

Yes… and why did AK bastards get order commandant T. Komorovsky to exterminate “German colonists and Ukrainians in GG except the Halych district”? Why did they burned alive thousands of innocent civilians which had not direct relation to Volyn events?

1. Obviously, when Polish survivors of the "Volhynia Massacres" reached West, they told about unspeakable barbarity of the UPA, of deeds like cutting of the breasts of women, plucking out eyes, etc etc - considering the scale of atrocities, it's no wonder that Komorowski decided to act in a harsh manner.

2. To total number of Ukrainian civilians who died at Polish hands is estimated at 20 thousands, but most of these were not killed by AK, but instead by independent self-defense groups (Polish "oddziały samoobrony".

[Max_the_Highlander]

You are too ignorant for your 27 years, boy. You need to be smarter when talking about serious things with grown up people. Obviously people born in 1980 are not very responsible ones.

I can - Germans started a war and started to forcibly misplace Polish civilians from their private property, this entirely different than murdering Polish civilians who simply lived in a area with Ukrainian majority.

No it’s not completely different because Poles occupied the lands of Western-Ukrainian Republic and robbed Ukrainians “misplacing them from private property”. The “land reforms” of Poles in Halych and other occupied lands are the same as German robbery of Polish lands.

Besides, Polish civilians actively collaborated with Nazi administration and Soviet partisans helping them repress innocent Ukrainians. They shared Nazi and outlook and practices if they did so.

Whatever AK did, it may be only used as accusation of AK, not a justification of UPA's deeds.

Well only thing UPA did is revenged the victims of Polish fascists and exterminated pro-fascists elements on Volyn. Ukrainians killed by bloody AK bastards had not any relation to Volyn events.

"Occupants" and "gangsters" is your subjective interpretation.

Poles occupied the lands of Western-Ukrainian People’s Republic so they were actually occupants. They robbed Ukrainian lands so they were actually gangsters.

They were not "Poles" but "some Poles" - you speak of it as if every Pole in Volyn, woman and child was in German service - in reality most of these people were simply farmers.

Yes and those Ukrainian women and children killed by Polish fascists also were simply farmers.

Even a not very intelligent person realizes

And how about not very intelligent 27 years old Polish puppy?

that Poles had huge power advantage over Ukrainians in the 20s and 30s, and even despite the terroristic actions of OUN, Poles never decided to mass murder Ukrainians - they opressed them, but never crossed the line into genocide.

No the lines was crossed with claims to solve Ukrainian problem during 25 years, pacifications, robbery of lands and concentration camps.

Why would suddenly the Polish society, or Polish society in Volhynia, choose to start mass murdering Ukrainians under German control, while they have't done that when it were the Poles who had the power?

You are talking complete rot, there are bunch of documents with support obvious fact – Ukrainians on Volyn went away from auxiliary police and Poles were hired instead of them. After that German repressions on Volyn blazed up with extreme power. It’s understandable Poles actively helped Germans to repress Ukrainians.

And of course when I say “Polish fascists” I mean exactly “Polish auxiliary policemen” of Volyn. Other community was pro-fascist element. People who justify them are obviously pro-fascists.

These "call you a liar" rhetoric is ridiculous coming from you - the main line of all your posts is lying by selective resistance against evidence.

So will you give us any evidences about participation of certain OUN people in certain anti-Jew actions? Since you didn’t give us anything you are liar, boy.

So what do you think, what were these Ukrainians doing exactly in German service, who do you think rounded up the Jews and robbed their valuables?

Again give us documents because without any evidences you only talk slander. And you got nothing except the slander. You are conscious liar. And you have not any documents about participation of certain OUN members in Jew massacres.

"Fair" according to the moral standarts of "Tutsi", "Hutu" and "Ukrainian" African tribes... oh I'm sorry, the last tribe is supposed to live in Europe.

Very well, this will go to mods. Don’t forget Polish fascists began murdering Ukrainian women and children first… and AK bastards continued it. This is quite tribal behavior as for me.

Obviously, when Polish survivors of the "Volhynia Massacres" reached West, they told about unspeakable barbarity of the UPA, of deeds like cutting of the breasts of women, plucking out eyes, etc etc - considering the scale of atrocities, it's no wonder that Komorowski decided to act in a harsh manner.

So when UPA soldier knew about unspeakable barbarity of Polish fascists who were burning crying kids alive together with their mothers they also decided to act is such harsh manner. what’s wrong here?

To repeat your “idea”: whatever UPA did, it may be only used as accusation of UPA, not a justification of AK deeds.

To total number of Ukrainian civilians who died at Polish hands is estimated at 20 thousands, but most of these were not killed by AK, but instead by independent self-defense groups.

So take those 20 000 of Ukrainians killed by self-defense groups, add 15-20 000 killed by AK add 30-40 000 killed by Polish fascists and you’ll get realistic number.

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

1. I can - Germans started a war and started to forcibly misplace Polish civilians from their private property, this entirely different than murdering Polish civilians who simply lived in a area with Ukrainian majority.

2. Whatever AK did, it may be only used as accusation of AK, not a justification of UPA's deeds.



"Occupants" and "gangsters" is your subjective interpretation.



1. Nobody has the right to make threats and do mass murder of thousands of civilians because some elements of an ethnic group did't comply to these threats.

2. They were not "Poles" but "some Poles" - you speak of it as if every Pole in Volyn, woman and child was in German service - in reality most of these people were simply farmers.




Because it was not an action which was controlled by the Polish society, or even Polish society in Volhynia.

Even a not very intelligent person realises that Poles had huge power advantage over Ukrainians in the 20s and 30s, and even despite the terroristic actions of OUN, Poles never decided to mass murder Ukrainians - they opressed them, but never crossed the line into genocide.

Why would suddenly the Polish society, or Polish society in Volhynia, choose to start mass murdering Ukrainians under German control, while they have't done that when it were the Poles who had the power?




1) Ukrainian police in German service took part in the Holocaust and the Ukrainians who were later to join UPA had to participate in those events if they were in German service.

2) These "call you a liar" rhetoric is ridiculous coming from you - the main line of all your posts is lying by selective resistance against evidence.




Ok, so they've should've had punished the policemen, they were serving the country Poland was at war against.



So what do you think, what were these Ukrainians doing exactly in German service, who do you think rounded up the Jews and robbed their valuables?

Previously, I've posted a link to a AK report which decribed how happy were the Ukrainian policemen who managed to get a grip on some Jewish property, while helping the rightful owners get transported to death camps.




"Fair" according to the moral standarts of "Tutsi", "Hutu" and "Ukrainian" African tribes... oh I'm sorry, the last tribe is supposed to live in Europe.




Tutsi, Hutu and Ukrainians do not, obviously.



1. Obviously, when Polish survivors of the "Volhynia Massacres" reached West, they told about unspeakable barbarity of the UPA, of deeds like cutting of the breasts of women, plucking out eyes, etc etc - considering the scale of atrocities, it's no wonder that Komorowski decided to act in a harsh manner.

2. To total number of Ukrainian civilians who died at Polish hands is estimated at 20 thousands, but most of these were not killed by AK, but instead by independent self-defense groups (Polish "oddziały samoobrony".

1st of all the volhyn was populated mostly by ukrainians yet the ethnic poles practically controlled all government and administrative positions, including the police. only 4% of the population was ethnic polish. Not only that but the ukrainian population was harassed significantly by beatings from the police and other various polish gangs. sometimes they disappeared i wonder where they went?

so no representation of the ukrainian majority.

Then in 1938 the polish government imported polish colonists to settle on lands not theres.

this seems more like an iraq comparison. Where the sunnis or the minority control the majority. so in this case the majority rose up and tried overthrowing a corrupt government.

well i guess you would say that the poles eventually found out that ukrainians are not just dumb sheep who follow a shepard.

not only that, polish police helped the NKVD torture and kill ukrainian nationalists (UPA OUN) from periods of 1939-1941.

So soviet guerilla partisans would attack villages and polish Schutzmannschaft would then go and attack the same villages.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

.......

not only that, polish police helped the NKVD torture and kill ukrainian nationalists (UPA OUN) from periods of 1939-1941.

.

I wonder what next crime against humanity will be attributed to Poles?
Maybe Hitler was a Pole as well, only dressed in a German uniform and sent to kill Ukrainians?
It sounds strange and shocking today, on September ONE, when German Army rushed on Poland and stayed there for long six years. All the examples of Polish heroism and ultimate sacrifice during WWII, done to help many European nations outside Poland is now reversed and turned against Polish people.
I would like to stress once more that no Polish authority, official or underground, supported any tortures or killing of Ukrainian people during WWII. Vasyl, you say about isolated incidents and you give an impression that it was organized action. That is deplorable. There was no OUN-UPA equivalent in the Polish underground force.
You absoutely lost proportion in accussing Poles as main Ukrainian enemy. I know no Polish doctrine during WWII declaring that Ukrainians were Polish enemies.
It is hard to imagine that the same Poles defending London, fighting in Dunkerque, Narvik, Tobruk, Monte Cassino, Breda, Lenino, Dresden, Berlin were bent on torturing & killing Ukrainians.




And second, practical thought - how those 4 percent of ethnic Poles in Volyn (your statistics Vasyl, not mine), harassed and terrorized by the Soviets which appeared all of a sudden in 1939 bringing "freedom and liberation for Ukrainian people oppressed by the "polskie pany""could be any force capable of doing so many wrongs????????????????????????????????????????

[bm-21Lemko]

And second, practical thought - how those 4 percent of ethnic Poles in Volyn (your statistics Vasyl, not mine), harassed and terrorized by the Soviets which appeared all of a sudden in 1939 bringing "freedom and liberation for Ukrainian people oppressed by the "polskie pany""could be any force capable of doing so many wrongs????????????????????????????????????????

what? I dont understand what you are saying here, you are jumping around.

As i have said before the polish police in the volyhn assisted with the soviets in picking out people that were ukrainian nationalists.
As for the soviets being friends i dont think so, the NKVD were brutal toward the ukrainian populace.
As for my statistic, ok its wrong but the population wasn't over 10% until the 1938 polish pilgrims came. so basically my point still stands minority rules majority and they did beat up and torture ukrainins in prewar poland.

I wonder what next crime against humanity will be attributed to Poles?

well they did commit ethnic cleansing that is Armia krajowa, in Dubingiai massacre where they killed all the lithuanian men but did not kill their polish wives. They used possession of Lithuanian prayer books as a means of identifying Lithuanian men.

You absoutely lost proportion in accussing Poles as main Ukrainian enemy.

Where did i claim the poles were the main enemy of the Ukrainians. That is not true. UPA, OUN, and other ukrainian groups attacked the soviet forces(including partisans) and german forces(including auxillary forces)

I would like to stress once more that no Polish authority, official or underground, supported any tortures or killing of Ukrainian people during WWII.

yet it happened. Pre-war, during war.


my point is not initiate that the poles are the enemy. my point is the UPA-OUN have the right to be regarded as heroes and as veterans of WWII. Because no side has any purity in them.