Photos of UPA's victims

[bm-21Lemko]

It was a war and both sides are guilty and as for monuments there is a Monument to Armia Krajowa in Rzeszow Poland.

They were guerilla fighters its not like they were trained soldiers who took an oath. UPA and OUN are not even recognised as veterans in Ukraine. Indirectly in western ukraine.

From evidence accounts we know that the UPA and the Armia Krojowa commited atrocities amongst the civilian population.

I'm not defending their actions and as a result of the UPA in Poland. rusyns had to leave their native homeland.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

It was a war and both sides are guilty and as for monuments there is a Monument to Armia Krajowa in Rzeszow Poland.

It's true that there were guilty people on both sides, but it's unfair to put AK and UPA on the same level.

AK did commit war crimes, but it did not organise a vast scale mass murder like UPA did, it was not the "modus operandi" of the AK. Also, the AK was not an extremist/nazi-like organisation like UPA was, the Polish equivalent of UPA was not AK, but NSZ.

(NSZ: National Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

UPA and OUN are not even recognised as veterans in Ukraine. Indirectly in western ukraine.

True, people from other regions of Ukraine often agree with Poles as to the nature of UPA. OTOH, even though it's limtied to Western Ukraine, the fact of glorification of UPA is a huge,huge anti-Ukrainian argument in our eyes and it's not simply a matter of the past - the mass murders are the in the past, but the glorification of the murderers is a thing in the present.

BTW a strange thing which always seemed strange to me - virtually all of the other Poles I've spoken with about this matter prefers building monuments to the civilian victims, building monuments to AK or other Polish armed formations is something far behind on the our "lists of priorities".

Meanwhile, Western/Diaspora Ukrainians seem to care more about monuments to UPA members, while caring less about monuments to Ukrainian victims of Poles. IMO it would be much better if they would reverse the preference - innocent civilians victims surely deserve rememberance much more than UPA members, and would not be offensive to us.

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

BTW a strange thing which always seemed strange to me - virtually all of the other Poles I've spoken with about this matter prefers building monuments to the civilian victims, building monuments to AK or other Polish armed formations is something far behind on the our "lists of priorities".

Meanwhile, Western/Diaspora Ukrainians seem to care more about monuments to UPA members, while caring less about monuments to Ukrainian victims of Poles. IMO it would be much better if they would reverse the preference - innocent civilians victims surely deserve rememberance much more than UPA members, and would not be offensive to us.

What can I say there is enough blame to go around.

Its not like the UPA and other nationalists were created over night to terrorize the polish population. No it was the oppression prior to 1940 in detention facilities.

Does it make it right to kill the innocent? no. But Poles and Ukrainians were just as much as involved in creating the UPA

here is a monument of the vicitims of the UPA in Ukraine so they are out there.
here is the link
File:The Monument to the Victims of Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA-OUN) Simferopol, Ukraine. 2007..jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Can you show some of the pictures of the UPA monuments that we have been talking obout glorifying murder?

The only ones i have seen thus far are actions from 1942-1943 against the soviet partisans

all i can say to sum up the fire is action - reaction

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

Its not like the UPA and other nationalists were created over night to terrorize the polish population. No it was the oppression prior to 1940 in detention facilities.

Does it make it right to kill the innocent? no. But Poles and Ukrainians were just as much as involved in creating the UPA

I think you should look into the history of OUN activities and Polish opressions before the war. Basically, vast majority of the opressions was a misguided Polish reaction to terroristic acts by OUN - acts like mass arson of private property, assasinations, etc etc.

OUN did make conscious effort to aggravate the situation, for example one of the people they've assasinated was Tadeusz Hołówko, a pro-Ukrainian Polish politician who opted for a concillatiory, tolerant stance toward Ukrainians. OUN killed him because people like him worked for peaceful solutions - solutions which worked against OUN's goal of bloody revolution. Basically, OUN was not as much a product of Polish opressions, but a group of extremists who wanted a confrontation and who were ready to do anything to stop a Polish-Ukrainian "evolutionary" (vs revolutionary) co-existence adaptation process.

Can you show some of the pictures of the UPA monuments that we have been talking obout glorifying murder?

The only ones i have seen thus far are actions from 1942-1943 against the soviet partisans

Not glorifying murder, but glorifying murderers. It's something like somebody would build a monument to Hitler and the SS and then explain that they were great heroes who defended the German Reich against the communists. Would't you find it offensive or at least inappriopriate, in the light of the Holocaust and other mass murders done by the Nazis?

As for monuments to UPA, an example monument:

Panoramio - Photo of Kryvonis & UPA monument
http://visualrian.ru/images/item/306134

BTW as for Polish-Ukrainians relations, lately there was an attack against the monument to Polish professors of the Lwow/Lviv university, who were murdered by Nazis, some say with assistance from pro-OUN Ukrainians. Photos:

untitled picture
untitled picture

I suspect you can read Cyrillic, but in case you don't, it's written there "Smert Lacham", which means "Death to the Poles". BTW notice the swastica visible on the second photo.

[bm-21Lemko]

alright i see your point.

But the Bloody relationship between Poles and Ukrainians cannot just be isolated to just the UPA and OUN. Ukrainians and sub-ethnosis counterparts have been on the bottom more times in class than on the top.

i would translate it as smert lyakham from cyrillic. I hope relations will become stronger. It seems some of the nationalism has died down in western ukraine. it is still there but not as in numbers before.

[zarate7]

Well this topic has been controversial!
I have just discovered that my father was in the 1st Division from 1944-45 as a member of the military youth. Does any one know what the extent of their involvement was? It sounds like an Ukranian version of the Wehrmacht.

[Hannia]

Margaret,

The UPA were Partisans (gorilla fighters who fought the Germans, Russians and Poles) and the Galician Division was orgamized by Nazis as part of German Army to help fight only the Bolsheviks.

1st-Division of the UNA: GALICIA DIVISION by Michael O. Logusz