Photos of UPA's victims

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

When one shoved, the other shoved back. My question is the Wehrmact, were some not honorable as well because some committed ethnic cleansing.

Ok, I agree - in Wehrmacht, or in UPA, or in many other armies/organisations, some people were war criminals, and some were not.

BTW Do notice that I wrote "Well, they were also WAR CRIMINALS" in my reply to General23's post, it was actually about the thing you wrote above - the small word "also" means that I do ackowledge that General23 was right about the "freedom fighters" aspect of UPA.

(although the question remains is he knows/accepts the other aspects of that organisation)

My point is all sides are guilty no matter who started it.

"All sides are guilty" is correct, but they are not necessarily guilty to the same degree... some details of OUN/UPA's history are simply horrible.

Originally Posted by Lvivske

I wouldn't say the few instances of pushing polish civilians out (and the atrocities that occurred) define the whole of the UPA's actions at all. there were legitimate battles with the Poles as well, and not to mention fighting the Nazi's and Red Army

1. To put the things in the right scale context, it was not about "few instances", it was about a mass action of extermination of Polish civilians, with about 60 thousands of Polish civilians murdered by UPA in Volyn alone, with around 100 thousands of Polish civilians killed total in Volyn and Galicia.

2. I don't say that murdering civilians defines the whole of UPA's actions - but I am saying that it was a significant element, an element which should be taken in account before somebody shouts "freedomfighters!" or "heroes!" enthusiastically.

It was a 3 front war for the UPA and you are focusing solely on 1/4 of the parties involved.

1. "3 front war" is technically quite correct, but I'm under strong impression that if you are writing from that perspective, then you are propably not familiar with the details of the situation...

2. I do not think that the Polish civilians at Volyn were really on any side, I think they were just civilians trying to survive.

3. You are correct that I focus on one party out of 4 here - but what would be changed if I would concentrate on the other 3 equally? IMO, many posters on this board have a inaccurate,heavily idealised image of UPA and hence the need for this thread - in case of Poles, Germans and Soviets, there is much less to de-idealise, at least as far as this board is concerned.

[bm-21Lemko]

Jaworzno-concentration camp(communist regime Poland)

This camp was the place, where the Lemkos who were suspected of cooperating with the UPA, were held. But not only Lemkos - all known Ukrainians from Krakow were placed there.
The Warsaw Ukrainian newspaper "Nashe Slovo", #12 and 13 (1990) published a work by Yevhen Misila about this camp. The work states among other things: Ukrainians, who in 1947-48 were killed or finished off in the concentration camp of Jaworzno. As a result of research conducted over several years, so far 150 names of victims have been determined. It is known however, that many more victims have died in the camp....
The list of victims of the concentration camp in Jaworzno contains names of 144 men, 4 women, and a 15 year old boy.....
Most of the people died in November (33) and December (43) of 1947. They were tortured under indescribable means and starved, and were killed by cold and unstoppable diseases.....
Ivan Moroz, former soldier in the Polish Army, who fought from Siberia, via Lenino, all the way to Berlin was placed in the camp.

This is one reason why I wished the UPA didn't enter Poland.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

2. I do not think that the Polish civilians at Volyn were really on any side, I think they were just civilians trying to survive.

like the Ukrainian civilians who were terrorized by the Poles for decades...

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

like the Ukrainian civilians who were terrorized by the Poles for decades...

I do not think we can add anything new to this discussion which was very interesting before (a few years ago) and then became flattened, predominantly because of Max's argumentation.
Yes, Michael is right when saying that I had the world veteran organizations in mind.
I do not deny that Ukrainian civilians were not treated fair by the Polish administration, though Lvivske does not say clearly that those "decades" were just less than two decades of prewar Poland (1921-1939). Lvivske, you just try to analyze the achievements of current Ukrainian state over roughly the same period of time.
Moreover, I have to say again that agressive West Ukrainian nationalism and radicalism promoted by the OUN which finally prevailed over more moderate approach was one of the reasons for the later UPA butchery. It was disciplined, ruthless and well organized butchery and not a set of loose, chaotic actions. It is an important observation.
It does not compare to a repressive WISLA action perpetrated by the Poland's communist authorities and surely sponsored by the Kremlin. It was never as cruel as the UPA deeds as a whole in spite of bloody episodes.