Photos of UPA's victims

[MichaelB_PL]

bm-21Lemko: I'm not certain what was the point you wanted to make by showing that other forces in WWII also commited war crimes - I still find General23's enthusiastic pro-UPA declaration to be disgusting and ignorant, considering the (ghastly) facts.

Lvivskie: I think Zbyszek meant the "world association of war veteran units", while you are referring to actions of president Yushchenko, who acted for giving UPA veterans more rights in Ukraine - you two are speaking about two different things.

Originally Posted by Lvivske

Every country has 'war criminals', but that doesn't paint the entire army/organization/nation in the same color.

I generally agree with that statement, although I think that in the case of armies and organisations (not nations), one should look at the overall activity of a given army/organisation, at how widespread the war crimes were, etc etc.

In UPA's case, we are not talking about some kind of rare, random atrocities, we are talking about an organised, consistent action of ethnic cleansing in which hundreds of villages were exterminated.

Massacres of Poles in Volhynia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"On July 11, 1943, UPA units surrounded and attacked Polish villages and settlements located in three counties - Kowel, Horochow and Wlodzimierz Wolynski. The events began at 3 in the morning, Poles had no chance to escape. After the massacres, the Polish villages were burned to the ground. According to those few who survived, the action had been carefully prepared, a few days before the massacres there had been several meetings in Ukrainian villages, during which UPA members were telling natives that slaughter of all Poles was necessary. (...)
Timothy Snyder describes the murders: "Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disemboweled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee"(...)
Altogether, in July of 1943 the Ukrainians attacked 167 towns and villages. [20]. This wave of massacres lasted 5 days, until July 16. It is also asserted that the UPA continued the ethnic cleansing, particularly in rural areas, until most Poles had been deported, killed or expelled. After 1944, the scale of such actions was limited. Mass murders of Poles also took place in Eastern Galicia, mainly in the area around Ternopil.(...)"

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

"On July 11, 1943, UPA units surrounded and attacked Polish villages and settlements located in three counties - Kowel, Horochow and Wlodzimierz Wolynski. The events began at 3 in the morning, Poles had no chance to escape. After the massacres, the Polish villages were burned to the ground. According to those few who survived, the action had been carefully prepared, a few days before the massacres there had been several meetings in Ukrainian villages, during which UPA members were telling natives that slaughter of all Poles was necessary. (...)
Timothy Snyder describes the murders: "Ukrainian partisans burned homes, shot or forced back inside those who tried to flee, and used sickles and pitchforks to kill those they captured outside. In some cases, beheaded, crucified, dismembered, or disemboweled bodies were displayed, in order to encourage remaining Poles to flee"(...)
Altogether, in July of 1943 the Ukrainians attacked 167 towns and villages. [20]. This wave of massacres lasted 5 days, until July 16. It is also asserted that the UPA continued the ethnic cleansing, particularly in rural areas, until most Poles had been deported, killed or expelled. After 1944, the scale of such actions was limited. Mass murders of Poles also took place in Eastern Galicia, mainly in the area around Ternopil.(...)"

Like Lvivske said each side has war criminals, even the soviets could be considered with their NKVD.

like i said in a previous post here

When one shoved, the other shoved back. My question is the Wehrmact, were some not honorable as well because some committed ethnic cleansing.

My point is all sides are guilty no matter who started it.

In March of that year the Interior Military (Wojska Wewnetrzne) murdered about 540 people in Stary Lublinets; in April - 400 people in Goraj. In March the peasant self-defense in cooperation with some forest detachment murdered about 300 Ukrainians in Pawlokoma, while in Piskorovychi - a detachment of the NSZ slaughtered some 400 Ukrainians, readied for resettlement. Another detachment of the NSZ attacked the village of Verkhovyna in June of 1945 and murdered some 200 people, including 65 children. There were numerous cases of murdering Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox priests, together usually with their families. In this way some 30 priests perished. In the neighborhood of Majdan Sieniawski it happened that a Polish military detachment or a band murdered a Roman Catholic priest, a Pole, who condemned those murders committed upon the Ukrainians. According to the UBP, from March to June 1945, the Polish underground and other detachments killed over 1500 Ukrainians.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

In UPA's case, we are not talking about some kind of rare, random atrocities, we are talking about an organised, consistent action of ethnic cleansing in which hundreds of villages were exterminated.

I wouldn't say the few instances of pushing polish civilians out (and the atrocities that occurred) define the whole of the UPA's actions at all. there were legitimate battles with the Poles as well, and not to mention fighting the Nazi's and Red Army

It was a 3 front war for the UPA and you are focusing solely on 1/4 of the parties involved.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

When one shoved, the other shoved back. My question is the Wehrmact, were some not honorable as well because some committed ethnic cleansing.

Ok, I agree - in Wehrmacht, or in UPA, or in many other armies/organisations, some people were war criminals, and some were not.

BTW Do notice that I wrote "Well, they were also WAR CRIMINALS" in my reply to General23's post, it was actually about the thing you wrote above - the small word "also" means that I do ackowledge that General23 was right about the "freedom fighters" aspect of UPA.

(although the question remains is he knows/accepts the other aspects of that organisation)

My point is all sides are guilty no matter who started it.

"All sides are guilty" is correct, but they are not necessarily guilty to the same degree... some details of OUN/UPA's history are simply horrible.

Originally Posted by Lvivske

I wouldn't say the few instances of pushing polish civilians out (and the atrocities that occurred) define the whole of the UPA's actions at all. there were legitimate battles with the Poles as well, and not to mention fighting the Nazi's and Red Army

1. To put the things in the right scale context, it was not about "few instances", it was about a mass action of extermination of Polish civilians, with about 60 thousands of Polish civilians murdered by UPA in Volyn alone, with around 100 thousands of Polish civilians killed total in Volyn and Galicia.

2. I don't say that murdering civilians defines the whole of UPA's actions - but I am saying that it was a significant element, an element which should be taken in account before somebody shouts "freedomfighters!" or "heroes!" enthusiastically.

It was a 3 front war for the UPA and you are focusing solely on 1/4 of the parties involved.

1. "3 front war" is technically quite correct, but I'm under strong impression that if you are writing from that perspective, then you are propably not familiar with the details of the situation...

2. I do not think that the Polish civilians at Volyn were really on any side, I think they were just civilians trying to survive.

3. You are correct that I focus on one party out of 4 here - but what would be changed if I would concentrate on the other 3 equally? IMO, many posters on this board have a inaccurate,heavily idealised image of UPA and hence the need for this thread - in case of Poles, Germans and Soviets, there is much less to de-idealise, at least as far as this board is concerned.

[bm-21Lemko]

Jaworzno-concentration camp(communist regime Poland)

This camp was the place, where the Lemkos who were suspected of cooperating with the UPA, were held. But not only Lemkos - all known Ukrainians from Krakow were placed there.
The Warsaw Ukrainian newspaper "Nashe Slovo", #12 and 13 (1990) published a work by Yevhen Misila about this camp. The work states among other things: Ukrainians, who in 1947-48 were killed or finished off in the concentration camp of Jaworzno. As a result of research conducted over several years, so far 150 names of victims have been determined. It is known however, that many more victims have died in the camp....
The list of victims of the concentration camp in Jaworzno contains names of 144 men, 4 women, and a 15 year old boy.....
Most of the people died in November (33) and December (43) of 1947. They were tortured under indescribable means and starved, and were killed by cold and unstoppable diseases.....
Ivan Moroz, former soldier in the Polish Army, who fought from Siberia, via Lenino, all the way to Berlin was placed in the camp.

This is one reason why I wished the UPA didn't enter Poland.

[Lvivske]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

2. I do not think that the Polish civilians at Volyn were really on any side, I think they were just civilians trying to survive.

like the Ukrainian civilians who were terrorized by the Poles for decades...

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Lvivske

like the Ukrainian civilians who were terrorized by the Poles for decades...

I do not think we can add anything new to this discussion which was very interesting before (a few years ago) and then became flattened, predominantly because of Max's argumentation.
Yes, Michael is right when saying that I had the world veteran organizations in mind.
I do not deny that Ukrainian civilians were not treated fair by the Polish administration, though Lvivske does not say clearly that those "decades" were just less than two decades of prewar Poland (1921-1939). Lvivske, you just try to analyze the achievements of current Ukrainian state over roughly the same period of time.
Moreover, I have to say again that agressive West Ukrainian nationalism and radicalism promoted by the OUN which finally prevailed over more moderate approach was one of the reasons for the later UPA butchery. It was disciplined, ruthless and well organized butchery and not a set of loose, chaotic actions. It is an important observation.
It does not compare to a repressive WISLA action perpetrated by the Poland's communist authorities and surely sponsored by the Kremlin. It was never as cruel as the UPA deeds as a whole in spite of bloody episodes.