Photos of UPA's victims

[Kathy]

Polonization predates the interwar period.

One of the reasons Ukrainian survived as a language was because when it was oppressed in the Austro Hungarian Empire, Ukrainian intellectuals moved to Russian controlled Ukraine, and vice versa. This was especially the case in the mid to late nineteenth century.

As for a "Polish reaction", I disagree. The Poles were worried about losing cheap labour. It may be viewed as a somewhat Marxist notion, but history proves that empire is always about wealth. That is as true today as it was in Roman times.

The plight of Ukrainians in the nineteenth century, where they were, essentially, serfs for pans, was exceptionally brutal. I have no doubt it was similar for Polish peasants.

You have quoted Dr. Himka here. I highly recommend his works on 19th century Galica - this was his first area of expertise, and his is an undisputed leader in this field of Ukrainian history.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

Polonization predates the interwar period.

One of the reasons Ukrainian survived as a language was because when it was oppressed in the Austro Hungarian Empire, Ukrainian intellectuals moved to Russian controlled Ukraine, and vice versa. This was especially the case in the mid to late nineteenth century.

Ok, but what kind of Polisation could the Poles conduct in the Austro-Hungarian Empire? I'd suspect that both Poles and Ukrainians were subject to Germanisation instead.

As for a "Polish reaction", I disagree. The Poles were worried about losing cheap labour. It may be viewed as a somewhat Marxist notion, but history proves that empire is always about wealth. That is as true today as it was in Roman times.

I do not think that is correct - AFAIK the Poles saw national minorities as a source of potential danger, not as a (beneficial) source of cheap labor.

Look for example at the peace conference at Riga of 1921, which ended the Polish-Soviet war - Poland rejected a Soviet territorial offer in a rather unusual way, demanding that less land should be given by the Soviets, basically saying "no thanks, you keep these lands".

Why did the Polish negotiators reduce the territorial gains of Poland? Because the Polish politicians wanted a more nationally homogenous state, prefering homogenity over the benefits given by additional cheap labour.

Peace of Riga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In fact, a special parliamentray delegation consisting of six members of the Sejm held a vote on whether to accept the Soviets' far-reaching concessions, which would leave Minsk on the Polish side of the border. Pressured by the national democrat Stanisław Grabski, the 100 km of extra territory were rejected, a victory for the nationalist doctrine and a stark defeat for Piłsudksi's federalism, for the national democrats envisioned a unitary Polish state with no more than 1/3 minorities within its borders, a prequisite for any successful Polonization attempts in their eyes."

The Poles have experienced many ethnic based conflicts in the 1918-1921 (Polish-Ukrainian war, Polish-Lithuanian war,the Silesian Uprisings) and because of that they were painfully aware of how easily ethnic issues can spark war - IMO they did't see national minorieties as beneficial source of cheap labour.

The plight of Ukrainians in the nineteenth century, where they were, essentially, serfs for pans, was exceptionally brutal. I have no doubt it was similar for Polish peasants.

Yes, there was even a armed rebellion of Polish peasants under Jakub Szela.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

Polonization predates the interwar period.

One of the reasons Ukrainian survived as a language was because when it was oppressed in the Austro Hungarian Empire, Ukrainian intellectuals moved to Russian controlled Ukraine, and vice versa. This was especially the case in the mid to late nineteenth century.

How exactly were the Ukrainian intellectuals opressed in AH Empire? By Poles or Austrians?

As for a "Polish reaction", I disagree. The Poles were worried about losing cheap labour. It may be viewed as a somewhat Marxist notion, but history proves that empire is always about wealth. That is as true today as it was in Roman times.

I do not think that is correct - AFAIK the Poles saw national minorities as a source of potential danger, not as a (beneficial) source of cheap labor.

Look for example at the peace conference at Riga of 1921, which ended the Polish-Soviet war - Poland rejected a Soviet territorial offer in a rather unusual way, demanding that less land should be given by the Soviets, basically saying "no thanks, you keep these lands".

Why did the Polish negotiators reduce the territorial gains of Poland? Because the Polish politicians wanted a more nationally homogenous state, prefering homogenity over the benefits given by additional cheap labour.

Peace of Riga - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"In fact, a special parliamentray delegation consisting of six members of the Sejm held a vote on whether to accept the Soviets' far-reaching concessions, which would leave Minsk on the Polish side of the border. Pressured by the national democrat Stanisław Grabski, the 100 km of extra territory were rejected, a victory for the nationalist doctrine and a stark defeat for Piłsudksi's federalism, for the national democrats envisioned a unitary Polish state with no more than 1/3 minorities within its borders, a prequisite for any successful Polonization attempts in their eyes."

The Poles have experienced many ethnic based conflicts in the 1918-1921 (Polish-Ukrainian war, Polish-Lithuanian war,the Silesian Uprisings) and because of that they were painfully aware of how easily ethnic issues can spark war - IMO they did't see national minorieties as beneficial source of cheap labour.

The plight of Ukrainians in the nineteenth century, where they were, essentially, serfs for pans, was exceptionally brutal. I have no doubt it was similar for Polish peasants.

Yes, there was even a armed rebellion of Polish peasants under Jakub Szela.

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

How exactly were the Ukrainian intellectuals opressed in AH Empire? By Poles or Austrians?

They were imprisoned, or were banned from writing, and at times, Ukrainian language publications were banned. This was done by Poles. I was referring to the 19th century, but these policies continued into the 1930's.

I do not think that is correct - AFAIK the Poles saw national minorities as a source of potential danger, not as a (beneficial) source of cheap labor.

In fact, this is correct. When Ivan Pylypiw returned to Nebeliv from Canada, and persuaded large numbers from the village, and surrounding villages, to emigrate, because they could recreate their villages in Canada, and have their own land, he was jailed by the Poles. Why? Because the peasants who were being exploited by Polish landlords would affect those landlords' estates and incomes. Remember, if one wanted to pick berries or mushrooms on the landlord's estate, one paid the landlord. If one crossed through the forest, a toll was paid. And this existed well into the interwar period.

Really, Michael, you should read some of Dr. Himka's works. He has written extensively on the exploitation of Galician peasants by landlords. Beatings (often culminating in death) and rape of housemaids were also common.

In the period you describe, Poland had the largest number of ethnic minorities living on its territory in all of Europe. To get back to a source of the conflict which is the subject of this thread, let us not forget that in the 1920's, Poles developed a policy of "Polonization" of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia, importing Polish settlers in order to displace the native Ukrainian population. These regions were already the most populated agricultural regions in Europe, yet the settlers were given massive subsidies and large allotments of the region's most productive lands.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Kathy

They were imprisoned, or were banned from writing, and at times, Ukrainian language publications were banned. This was done by Poles. I was referring to the 19th century, but these policies continued into the 1930's.

I know such policies were implemented by the Poles in the interwar period, but how could the Poles do it in the AH Empire, where they have been subject people themselves? Was it done by ethnic Poles who were employed as AH goverment employees?

In fact, this is correct. When Ivan Pylypiw returned to Nebeliv from Canada, and persuaded large numbers from the village, and surrounding villages, to emigrate, because they could recreate their villages in Canada, and have their own land, he was jailed by the Poles. (...)

Ok, I was referring to the interwar Poland - before 1918-1921 it was surely different.

Really, Michael, you should read some of Dr. Himka's works. He has written extensively on the exploitation of Galician peasants by landlords. Beatings (often culminating in death) and rape of housemaids were also common.

Yes, I think I will obtain some of his works.

In the period you describe, Poland had the largest number of ethnic minorities living on its territory in all of Europe. To get back to a source of the conflict which is the subject of this thread, let us not forget that in the 1920's, Poles developed a policy of "Polonization" of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia, importing Polish settlers in order to displace the native Ukrainian population. These regions were already the most populated agricultural regions in Europe, yet the settlers were given massive subsidies and large allotments of the region's most productive lands.

Yes, I know and thinking about it, it's must've been terrible...

I have been in the today Polish Galicia (around Przemysl/Peremysl) and I've seen the rural countryside there - fertile land, but divided into very small farms with lot's of poverty, much different than in other parts of Poland - I suspect that Eastern Galicia and Volhynia must've been the same in the 30s and that introducing the settlers probably pushed many Ukrainian peasants into poverty.



Michael

[Kathy]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

I know such policies were implemented by the Poles in the interwar period, but how could the Poles do it in the AH Empire, where they have been subject people themselves? Was it done by ethnic Poles who were employed as AH goverment employees?

Poles had administrative control of the region from the 1860's.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Ok, I was referring to the interwar Poland - before 1918-1921 it was surely different.

No, Ukrainians also emigrated in large numbers in the interwar period, because of poverty and oppression.

[General23]

UPA ARMY ARE FEEDOM FIGHTERS, they fought against ANYONE who even thought of occupying Ukraine!