Photos of UPA's victims

[bm-21Lemko]

I think you should pay close attention to that fragment. Look at "German intelligence concluded that Ukrainian nationalists were indifferent to the plight of the Jews and were willing to either kill them or help them, depending on what better served their cause"

In a way, it's perhaps even worser than emotional anti-semitism, because it's treating human people as...cattle which can be slaughtered for practical purposes. I don't know if you've noticed, but this fragment shows the Ukrainian nationalists as heavily, heavily degenerated people.

I did read it. They also killed Ukrainians and Russians too. They did for the same reason they were apart of the auxiliary to create a nation of statehood without oppression from Russians or Poles.

Different units of the Armia Krajowa (Home Army) also frequently attacked Jewish partisan groups..A commander of the Gwardia Ludowa (leftist Organization) wrote in his report of June 1943: " Our detachments now have to fight on two fronts. The Command of the underground struggle (Home Army) is organizing detachments whose task is to liquidate 'Communist bands, Soviet POW and Jews'

Dr. Zygmunt Klukowski, whose Diary has been already quoted, wrote in his entry of November 26, 1942:
Among the bandits (partisans) are many Jews. The peasants, for fear of repressive measures, catch Jews in the villages and bring them into town, or sometimes simply kill them on the spot. Generally, a strange brutalization his taken place regarding the Jews. People have fallen into a kind of psychosis: following the German example, they often do not see in the Jew a human being but instead consider him a kind of obnoxious animal that must be annihilated with every possible means
During the short lived and abortive Warsaw Uprising in 1945, many Jews that were recognized were killed by the "Polish Fighters". The abyss of the cancerous anti-Semitism came to light in 1945 when after the liberation, the remnants of Jewish Survivors were slaughtered by Polish mob in the town of Kielce. Poland is the only country in the world where a pogrom occurred after the Holocaust.
The Polish Underground kept a tight watch for Polish collaborators, many Poles were executed for denouncing Poles, but denouncing Jews was tolerated.

The Polish Home Army did not accept Jews, but many Jews served under assumed Aryan names. One of the Survivors Henry Wilner served as a Courier to the Glowny Sztab (Command Headquaters), recalls that the Commander of the Army Gen. Bor Komorowski (Armia Krojowa) was asked why they don't accept Jews who having nothing to loose are such dedicated fighters. "They can not be trusted because having nothing to loose they do not withstand the torture of the Gestapo when caught"
Bor-Komorowski ordered a mandated for the Polish underground to kill off Jewish partisans

The Polish leadership was more concerned with the idea of retaining of all Jewish properties and businesses than with helping their unfortunate compatriots

Problem is the way I've heard it, these Jews were indeed "medical personnel" - they were doctors. Before the war the Ukrainians were largely rural people, with cities dominated by Poles, Jews and Russians. Rural people usually are much less often educated and that's how it also was in that case - there were less people with higher education among Ukrainians, which also meant less doctors. And in war, you do need doctors.

Many Jews were educated, many of them doctors - and some of them were hiding in the countryside. And UPA recruited them, which was consistent with the "were willing to either kill them or help them".

yes yes yes History clearly states Jews were professionals. Doctors, Lawyers, and such. For this reason many of the uneducated looked down upon them. I dont imagine there were many ukrainians that were doctors since the majority of them at this time were poor and rural. I even imagine if they tried they would be discriminated against to attend a medical insitituion in Russia or Poland. But as I posted before, they were none the less active within the movement. Even claimed they fought with UPA units. I believe if they gave the UPA only medical support than it would have said the aided the UPA. One of the UPA commanders was half jewish.

Why wait for that? They are already citizens of Ukraine even if they prefer to speak Russian. What I want to show you is that different nations and different kind of people see UPA in a very negative way. Even a large part of citizens of Ukraine sees them like that.

Yes they also would like reserrect the Soviet Union. They forget the holodmor was orchestrated by the Soviet Union. The reason I wait is for the same reasion you do not wish to speak german. Its was a language used to oppress your people.

[bm-21Lemko]

One of the likely scenarios went like this:

When the SS Galizien patrol aproached Huta Pieniacka, there were't initially fired upon, because the self-defense saw the German uniforms, and they were't so stupid as to opposed Germans whom they considered semi-friendly. The Ukrainian patrol walked forward peacefully and quite likely with a peaceful intent, they thought they are simply entering one more village in the German controlled territory

The problem is that probably one of the Ukrainians said something in Ukrainian. This has probably make the self-defense believe that it was actually NOT a German unit, but instead a UPA unit dressed as Germans in order to infiltrate and massacre the village - and so the Ukrainians were fired upon. This is also why the mutilation of the killed Ukrainians soldiers is VERY likely - the villagers thought they are mulating the bodies of UPA members, mutilating the bodies of members of organisation which has massacred thousands of their family members.

On February 23, 1944 – patrol encounters resistance
February 28, 1944 – assault day
“The Poles however, had too little time to prepare a defense or to escape”

You tell me how this makes since? They werent prepared, it was 5 days after. (Polish account)


Ok lets say that the scenario you present is a possibility.

Why mutilate the bodies if you know they're not UPA
---documents found in uniforms of the killed soldiers stated that they were members of the SS Galizien Division, stationed in Brody

On what basis do you declare this academy credible just because it is "highest state research organization in Ukraine". Do you also believe Soviet propaganda coming in the past from the highest stare research organisations in Soviet Union? Furthermore, do you find the highest state research organisations in Turkey credible when it comes to the massacres of Armenians by the Turks?

So I assume you disregard the russian source as well. Its not a single source two sources one of them being ukrainian discrediting the polish account. The Russians were allied with the villagers and had a presence there.

Yes, sure, calling the relations of witnesses "difficult to believe" is a perfect defense against the uncomfortable truth.

You discredit the reports of attacks on surrounding ukrainian villages and documented attacks on german supply lines. Even from the polish account partisans fighters numbered 500 in the village of 1,000.

But how legitimate were the reasons for slaughtering every civilian, women and children included?

I don't really get how presense of troops discredits the claim of atrocities. Troops often defend villages, cities, etc etc. The normal (non-atrocity) way of taking such a settlement is to kill or capture the defending troops and leave the civilians alone. What the Ukrainians from SS Galizien did here was to kill the armed defenders AND slaughter every civilian they could get their hands on and the SECOND part constitutes a war crime

Well as I have stated before. Two accounts of the incident both researched found the ukrainians of SS galicia did not massacre civilians. Even a documentary made in Britains about ss galicia veterans residing there portraying them as murderers was discredited due to falsification. They movie makers constructed two regiments that never existed.

Obviously the partisans in the village did not take into credit the civilians residing there otherwise im sure they would have moved their positions forward to minimize civilian casualties.

I'm sure there was civilian deaths. If you are entering a village that you know has armed combatants, any movement could be that of an enemy partisan. There were 500 partisans fighters in a village of 1,000. Im pretty sure the partisans were clearly marked and were wearing civilian clothes. Makes it hard to distinguish when in a fire fight.

There are some facts that just dont seem to add up on the polish account.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

Different units of the Armia Krajowa (Home Army) also frequently attacked Jewish partisan groups.

I think that attacking Jewish partisan groups is one thing, and taking an active part in Holocaust and murdering Jewish civilians is another.

BTW the Polish goverment-in-exile (to which AK was subordinated) created Żegota, which was a organisation devoted to helping Jews.

е╩egota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes they also would like reserrect the Soviet Union. They forget the holodmor was orchestrated by the Soviet Union. The reason I wait is for the same reasion you do not wish to speak german. Its was a language used to oppress your people.

I don't think that they really want to resurrect Soviet Union, AFAIK they would be content with simply joining Russia as it is now.

As for speaking Russians vs Ukrainian, I fully support your choice made for yourself, but what about people who prefer speaking Russian? Do you think they are inferior to Ukrainians in some fundamental way? Should their opinion be disregarded?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

“The Poles however, had too little time to prepare a defense or to escape”

You tell me how this makes since? They werent prepared, it was 5 days after. (Polish account)

Actually that's not necessarily a inconsistency. Perhaps the Poles thought they've killed some Ukrainians for whom the Germans would not take revenge.

Why mutilate the bodies if you know they're not UPA ---documents found in uniforms of the killed soldiers stated that they were members of the SS Galizien Division, stationed in Brody

If the villagers put any mind to reading the documents - which were in...German and Ukrajnian? Remember that there were probably many people there who have lost families to UPA ethnic cleansing, if the bodies were mutilated then it was not a coldly made decision, but a spontanius action made out of hate.

You discredit the reports of attacks on surrounding ukrainian villages and documented attacks on german supply lines. Even from the polish account partisans fighters numbered 500 in the village of 1,000.

No, I do not discredit the reports of partisan presence or attacks on Ukrainian villages or German supply lines. But I want to divide it into two different aspects:

1) the military assault on the village, IE fight against armed defenders
2) the subsequent mass murder of everybody in the village

I realise there might be justification for #1, but not for #2.

Well as I have stated before. Two accounts of the incident both researched found the ukrainians of SS galicia did not massacre civilians.

What accounts?

Obviously the partisans in the village did not take into credit the civilians residing there otherwise im sure they would have moved their positions forward to minimize civilian casualties.

I'm sure there was civilian deaths. If you are entering a village that you know has armed combatants, any movement could be that of an enemy partisan. There were 500 partisans fighters in a village of 1,000. Im pretty sure the partisans were clearly marked and were wearing civilian clothes. Makes it hard to distinguish when in a fire fight.

1) I think you misunderstand. We are not talking about a certain percentage of civilian casualties, which could indeed happen from cross fire, misidentification, etc etc. We are talking about the attackers killing every single human being they could get their hands on. Did they misidentify EVERY child in the village as a armed Polish partisan?

2) The number of 500 fighters out of 1000 population seems highly absurd, looks like a lie of "creative" Ukrainian historian. There are two aspects to this:

2.1 fight against 500 fighters defending from village buildings would take heavy, heavy toll of casualties upon the attackers. How high were the casualties among the attackers?

2.2 AK seldom defended villages from German assaults, it usually only was getting supplies from them. Actually there might be a 500-men partisan unit operating nearby and getting supplies and information from the village, but the chance of the unit taking open battle from the village was close to none.

BTW the Poles do not deny that there were different kinds of partisans operating in the area, both AK and Soviet. The problem is that those partisans were almost certainly NOT in the village when the Germans and Ukrainians aproached. Another problem is that the attackers killed EVERYBODY they could get their hands on, women and children included.

[bm-21Lemko]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

I think that attacking Jewish partisan groups is one thing, and taking an active part in Holocaust and murdering Jewish civilians is another.

BTW the Polish goverment-in-exile (to which AK was subordinated) created Żegota, which was a organisation devoted to helping Jews.

е╩egota - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unfotunantly the UPA and OUN didnt have the financial stability that the AK had. Hence the use of german and soviet weapons. Bandera even asked 4,000 ukrainians to join the german police corp and than defect to the OUN in order to gain weapons.

Poland had ex veterans and statehood with taxation money from prewar europe

While the zegota saved 4,000 jews, the UPA is not without its service to saving Jews either.

The OUN also aided Jews. According to a report to the Chief of the Security Police in Berlin dated March 30, 1942, "...it has been clearly established that the Bandera movement provided forged passports not only for its own members, but also for Jews.". When Bandera was in conflict with the Germans, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army under his authority sheltered many Jews. Also I imagine since they had a presence of jewish fighters in their ranks they did more than when they were in conflict of the germans. so pretty much after 1942 they were in conflict with the germans since bandera was in a concentration camp.

I don't think that they really want to resurrect Soviet Union, AFAIK they would be content with simply joining Russia as it is now.

As for speaking Russians vs Ukrainian, I fully support your choice made for yourself, but what about people who prefer speaking Russian? Do you think they are inferior to Ukrainians in some fundamental way? Should their opinion be disregarded?

ok yes a dominant Russian sphere of influence.

I do not view Ukrainians who speak russian as inferior. I dont understand why they speak russian. I know why, its because thats what they were taught in school and brought up with. But by choosing to speak russian over ukrainian, why call yourself a Ukrainian then?

UPA and OUN was definantly a western ukrainian movement.

Why the South and Odessa were more inclined to be in favor of soviet and Nkvd activities for this reason i believe their view is biased especially when you have many veterans who fought against the upa.

[bm-21Lemko]

Actually that's not necessarily a inconsistency. Perhaps the Poles thought they've killed some Ukrainians for whom the Germans would not take revenge.

Any armed partisan group with that kind of activity is going to have scouts. For them not to know especially with soviet partisans just doesn’t add up. Here is a reason they had to have scouts:


1. attacks on german convoys.
2. attacks on patrols
3. raids on villages

My guess is the partisans had left the area like you said. The Germans wiped out the village.

If the villagers put any mind to reading the documents - which were in...German and Ukrajnian? Remember that there were probably many people there who have lost families to UPA ethnic cleansing, if the bodies were mutilated then it was not a coldly made decision, but a spontanius action made out of hate.

Ok say they did it out of hate. They knew by engaging and subsequent discovery of documents whether in German or Ukrainian would have provoked a response.
I don’t take these villagers to be stupid either. They would have known even if they couldn’t read german or Ukrainian the distinct lion on the lapel of the uniform not to be UPA but and auxiliary force of the wehrmacht. clearly not stolen wehrmacht uniforms.

What accounts?

These accounts on wiki they are sighted at the bottom.
Huta Pieniacka massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) I think you misunderstand. We are not talking about a certain percentage of civilian casualties, which could indeed happen from cross fire, misidentification, etc etc. We are talking about the attackers killing every single human being they could get their hands on. Did they misidentify EVERY child in the village as a armed Polish partisan?

2) The number of 500 fighters out of 1000 population seems highly absurd, looks like a lie of "creative" Ukrainian historian. There are two aspects to this:

2.1 fight against 500 fighters defending from village buildings would take heavy, heavy toll of casualties upon the attackers. How high were the casualties among the attackers?

2.2 AK seldom defended villages from German assaults, it usually only was getting supplies from them. Actually there might be a 500-men partisan unit operating nearby and getting supplies and information from the village, but the chance of the unit taking open battle from the village was close to none.

BTW the Poles do not deny that there were different kinds of partisans operating in the area, both AK and Soviet. The problem is that those partisans were almost certainly NOT in the village when the Germans and Ukrainians aproached. Another problem is that the attackers killed EVERYBODY they could get their hands on, women and children included.

I didn’t say there wasn’t a massacre I was discrediting the fact that it was not done by SS Galicia. Besides that much of the murderous activites done to the villages have a distinct parallel to actions done by german forces.

The germans tracked all of their units. It was said that SS galicia cleared the area of combatants then a german police brigade burned the villages

It also said the police brigade killed all the villagers.

There were 1,000 soviet partisans 3 days before the patrol. AK member opened fired on the patrol killing 2 first and a 3rd wounded later died. The documents were reported to AK headquarters. The headquarters told the fighters to leave the village and hide the weapons in the village or take them with them. This supports the reason why when the German Schutzpolizei unit set fire to the dwellings some ammunition exploded.
500 ss galicia entered 5 days later after the reports of partisan activity proved true when 3 of their soldiers died. Than they mortared and machine gunned the village. I imagine they encountered little resistance and than the German schultzpolizei killed the civilians.

Im almost certain that once these germans searched the village and found german weapons that created anger amongst them.

If it were a ukrainian village im sure it would have been the same result.

Not only that but the veterans that now reside in England have been cleared several times for war crimes and have been investigated thoroughly.
The polish account to me still seems suspicious