History Lesson.

[MiguelMichael]

Poland didn't humiliate Lithuanians.they had equal position with Poles in IRP and fall of RP was in much part their contribution.Poles defended Lithuanian empty spaces from tzar through 200 years.they always say they were humiliated only because they were smaller and weaker.Wales can say the same about England and so can Slovakia do with Czechs or Croatia with Serbs.
Belarussians weren't discriminated either.only Cossacks were but considering this still Poland has always been much more liberal than anyone else.

[benda]

What are you calling "liberty" - that parody to the republic you had? When only one vote "Nie pozwalam!" could block every decision? Ask the Lithuanian (I said I don't like Balts but it's another case) did Lithuanians accept 1569, Lublin as equal union?

[SkyRenegade]

Well i hope i didn't start any personal wars here............he he............lol.

[MiguelMichael]

most Lithuanians supported federation with Poland.only magnates were against.you should know it was Lithuanian monarch's decision to unify both countries and give Ukraine to Poland.

[benda]

And you should know that despite it had to be an equal union it wasn't - Lithuania and Ukraine were pressed by Poland a lot. Yes, I know about monarch's decision - remember Krevska uniya, 1385, Horodelska uniya, 1413. I think that the best country Ukraine was under is Lithuania (though I'm for independence) because they used a concept "We don't touch the old and don't introduce the new".

[benda]

Dear SkyRenegate, please don't be afraid. The thing is Poland has to admit it was a cruel ruler over Ukraine. But now I'd like Poland and Ukraine hosted football (soccer) Euro-2012.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by benda
Russia became worse than Poland only when Poland DISAPPEARED - in the end of XVIII century. You may say Polish kings brought Polish culture to Ukraine - but Polish culture was nothing compared to European.Polish landlords humiliated Ukrainians a lot.

I'm sorry, but you are repeating the false vision of history created mainly in XX century and you seem to be severly disinformed.

The Commonwealth was a state based not on ethnic principles but on feudal principles first- man's rights were dictated by his rank of birth/station, not ethnicity.
Polish nobles did opress the Ukrainian peasants, but Polish peasants had exactly the same rights as Ukrainian ones(none).
Also, there were Ukrainian nobles too and it were often they, not the Polish nobles, who humilitated and opressed the Ukrainian peasants.

XX century Ukrainian nationalism and anti-Polish Russian/Soviet propaganda distorted the picture to "Poles opressed Ukrainians", but the truth is it was mostly "nobles opressed peasants, with no regard to ethnicity".

Without Greek Catholic church Ukraine would be a normal country.

Why do you think Ukraine is not a normal country and how does the presence of Greek Catholic Church make it not normal?

It's spread mostly in the Western Ukraine, which is the most Polish region.

Actually, many Ukrainians do not see that as something which puts Poles in bad light.

You're talking of Belarus because there's a diplomatic scandal between Poland and Belarus. Poles humiliated not only Ukrainians, but also Belarussians, Lithuanians.

Not during the Commonwealth. Poles took a Lithuanian as a king (Jagiello/Jogailo) and the Lithuanian and Rusin (Ukrainian&Belarussian) nobles got equal rights as Polish nobles.

The historical truth is: Poland was quite an aggressive country and behaved on her lands not much better than Europeans in Africa. Ukrainians were enslaved by Poles.

Wrong, peasants were enslaved by the nobles. I'm sorry, but your post is based on faulty and/or dishonest information sources- please study more about the political and social system of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

What are you calling "liberty" - that parody to the republic you had? When only one vote "Nie pozwalam!" could block every decision? Ask the Lithuanian (I said I don't like Balts but it's another case) did Lithuanians accept 1569, Lublin as equal union?

1. The Commonwealth's system was a faulty one- but no a anti-Ukrainian or anti-Lithuanian one- one single Ukrainian or one single Lithuanian noble could use the "Nie pozwalam!".
It was wrong and it was faulty and it was stupid, but it was in no way "Poland opressing Ukraine" or some other nonsense like that-to some degree it was the opposite, it was "state in which one Ukrainian noble could block the parlament's resolution"

2. Today Lithuanians usually prefer XX century nationalism instead of proper history learning, probably because the historical truth is a bit less nice and simplistic than the XX century nationalistic fantasies.

The thing is Poland has to admit it was a cruel ruler over Ukraine

I'm sorry, but I think that is would be not good to admit something which is't exactly true. It would be good however, if people would learn history better before making such statements.


Michael