Let us look closer at what Union of Lublin 1569 meant for Ukraine

[Zbyszek]

On July 1 1569 in Lublin, the Polish and Lithuanian parliament members under the guidance of the King Sigismund August proclaimed the eternal Union between the Polish Crown and Grand Duchy of Lithuania.


Union of Lublin was undoubtedly critically important event for Ukraine. Let us summarize its genesis, its impact on contributors and neighbouring countries (Muscovy in particular) as well as far-reaching consequences.
Let us sketch possible what-if scenarios (although we would surely enrage professional historians this way...)
There is canonical version of Ukraine's history explaining the Union as a disaster for Ukraine. There is also canonical Ukrainian image of Lithuania as romantic, tolerant and innocent land and this image is given as a counterbalance for aggressive, over-ambitious Poland pushing for Ukrainian wealth.
There is irresistible temptation to attribute everything what went wrong to Polish Catholicism.

Is it true and balanced assessment? Let us talk about it. Let us ponder on how high school textbooks and our history teachers shape our historic perspective.

[MiguelMichael]

Union of Lublin wasn't a disaster for Lithuania.Most Lithuaians accepted it,gentry wanted privileges which Polish gentry already had.Only Lithuanian magnates opposed union because they were afraid that Lithuanian gentry would become strengthened and threat their position.Sigsismund August,Lithuanian-rooted king who didn't have children was afraid that after his death union between Poland and Lithuania would end up and cause common disaster.When lithuanian magnates boycotted Seym and leave for Lublin,Sigismund incorporated Lithuanian Kiev and Volhynia to Poland what forced magnates to accept the Union treaty.
Union of Lublin was a positive thing for Lithuanians.Polish army defended and protected weak Lithuanian state from Moscow for 2 centuries.if there was no Union Polish and Lithuanian kingdom would fall down immediately conquered by Russia,Habsburgs,Turkey or anyone else.

For Ukraine Union of Lublin wasn't a disaster neither.it had many positive consequences.for instance it speeded up the process of national rebirth of Ukrainians.If there wasn't Lublin Union all Ukraine would be Russian now and all Ukrainians would speak Russian.

[Alex_Ivanov]

Originally posted by MiguelMichael
If there wasn't Lublin Union all Ukraine would be Russian now and all Ukrainians would speak Russian.

And that wouldn't have been the worst outcome. And if Lithuania and Poland had never existed, Ukraine would have never ceased to be Russian first of all.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Alex_Ivanov

And that wouldn't have been the worst outcome. And if Lithuania and Poland had never existed, Ukraine would have never ceased to be Russian first of all.

...and if there were no rotten western democracies, no treacherous Poland, no aggressive Lithuania, no dissenting Kievan Orthodoxy, Mother Russia would make everyone on the planet happy and sound...



Hello Alex, that is not so sure I think. The disintegration of Rus in the wake of Mongol invasion had little to do with Lithuania and nothing with Medieval Poland.

Now, I am keeping my promise given in another thread to Serhii:
I would like to use the opportunity and present statistics given by Polish historian Wladyslaw Konopczynski, concerning practical use of liberum veto principle. All disrupted parliaments sessions taking place in the XVIIth and XVIIIth century were considered:

Kievan and Rus voivodships: 24
Lithuania: 28
Polonia Minor (Malopolska): 9
Polonia Major (Wielkopolska): 12
(published 1962)
Serhii, conclusion is up to you.

I would like to explain that the liberum veto made some legal sense because Rzczpospolita was meant as federation of many lands/counties. One PM represented one land and all lands were regarded as equal, hence all parliament members should give their approval in the most important issues.
Later on, it became a caricature of parliamentry life when corruption and demoralization of the richest nobles grew beyond imagination. Lithuanian nobles were in no way innocent.
The liberum veto was used earlier in Western Europe and then gradually replaced with majority vote.

Serhii, I would also make you interested in a very old example of sober political writing, relating to the times of religious tolerance in Poland: A reply to Jesuits and other clergymen The article was written around 1606-1607 by unknown (although well educated) author. It reflects typical thinking of educated Polish classes. It is not easy to understand it 100% as it represents Old Polish and moreover, it contains Latin inclusions, also typical at that time. I am providing it just for curiosity. Any explanations would be gladly provided at your request.
[text was rewritten by me of course and the fonts are not original]
My best regards
Zbigniew



[Edited by Zbyszek on 30th June 2005 at 21:34]

[Serhii]

Yes Zbyszek - it is a very interesting historical document. Let me take first this

Kievan and Rus voivodships: 24
Lithuania: 28
Polonia Minor (Malopolska): 9
Polonia Major (Wielkopolska): 12
(published 1962)

So , representatives from Ukrainian and Lithuanian wojewodstw used liberum veto more often. I▓d like to learn then who were those representatives ( poslowie do Sejmu ) Ukrainians or Poles. It would tell a lot. At that time many Ukrainian lands were given to Polish magnates , who thought only about themselves .
Secondly, what questions were banned ? Maybe they were just true with that Nie pozwoliam! Polish state at that time was absolutely crazy √ everything could be possible. But it any case it is interesting statistics for sure.

Now to ▒Jezuitom I inshym duchownym┘▓- Some general suggestions first. The old Polish is easier to read than twisted modern one ! The Latin is more difficult ( learnt long ago ). I noticed the author wrote everything in past tense

-..dochodzily zawzdy ani tak , jako teraz ...
-...owszem spolki I przyjaznie wielkie z nimi miewali I statecznie zachowywali...

The article was written around 1606 , so the situation of ▒ spolki I pryjazni welkej ┘▓ had not exested any longer .

Oh my , if only Poland had had more such people and anyone had listened to them , we would for sure have had another history in our region. But happened what happened. In 1606 it was possible to write such articles - it explains a lot. By I think closer to 1630-40 it began totally impossible. Crazy Polish state rushed into self-destruction.

And that▓s by the way an answer to the question about Union of Liublin. Nothing could be good in such state. As you asked I took several new books on history of that time. No one good words about that dammed disaster. Lithuanians did not want it at all as well. They battled with Moscowia at that time and simply expected Polacks to help them. Oh my , how naОve they were ! In a short time Wilnius became Wilno and endless sorrow of Lithuania started. We had the same situation with L▓viv , so understand each other with Lithuanians very well.

Thank you for interesting documents !


[Edited by Serhii on 1st July 2005 at 22:53]

[Zbyszek]

Hello Serhii, I am really glad that you displayed interest the the quoted document. It is so nice that you noticed similarity between Old Polish and (Ruthenian/Ukrainian) language. Yes, you are right to some degree, the author complains about things that have changed for worse since the Yagiellonian era which, given the document's date, passed a few decades earlier. The problem is whether Polish upper classes could be collectively judged and condemned after milk had been spilled.
Things I want to prove are hardly aceptable for all nationalists: Russian, Ukrainian or Polish ones.
Rzeczpospolita was not Poland like Great Britain was not England. Rzeczpospolita was laid on solid foundations of respect for the "shareholders".
Now, Polish nationalists write their own history version which simply did not exist in the XVIth century. They make an equality sign between Poland and Rzeczpospolita. They blab about how Poland brought light and only one right faith to Eastern Europe. By saying that, they harm themselves because if only Poland had right to glory, she consequently would have to bear the whole burden of what went wrong in the Union.
No, Rzeczpospolita was a COMMON WEALTH. It really was a federation even if the wealth was unevenly distributed. I will consequently defend my thesis and believe me I have solid proofs.
I realize that we can call the XVIth cenury a Golden age of Rzeczpospolita, the XTIIth century a Silver Age while the XVIIIth century a Dark Age. Decline of the impressive construction took much time. Compare it with Stalin's era.

I would like to devote some time to Lithuania's role in the Union. As I have already told, I have blood of a notable Lithuanian family in my veins so please do not say I am biased against Lithuanian magnates. (we discussed details with another ukraine.com member, Batukhan).
I am just saying that Lithuanians did not lose from participation to the Union and I am going to prove it later in detail.
Thank you for your voice Serhii.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 2nd July 2005 at 00:44]

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Serhii
And that▓s by the way an answer to the question about Union of Liublin. Nothing could be good in such state. As you asked I took several new books on history of that time. No one good words about that dammed disaster. Lithuanians did not want it at all as well. They battled with Moscowia at that time and simply expected Polacks to help them. Oh my , how naОve they were ! In a short time Wilnius became Wilno and endless sorrow of Lithuania started. We had the same situation with L▓viv , so understand each other with Lithuanians very well.

Thank you for interesting documents !

[/B]

Serhiii, let me sketch tangled relations between Poland and Lithuania in order to give you and other broader perspective.


1. Contrary to Rus, Lithuanian culture was not sophisticated until XIVth century. Lithuanians were last christened nation in Europe and I do not want to make an accusation, it is just an observation. Lithuanians along with Prussians and Yatzvingas made a lot of trouble for their neigbours and Poland was no exception. They frequently raided north-eastern Polish lands like Mazovia stealing property and abducting people to distant territories.
2. I have to say that Lithuanians were smart and their troops were well organized. Conquering Rus in the wake of Tartar invasion was brilliant military success.
3. Lithuania was vast land of nearly empty forest and planes. Number of Poles "relocated" from Mazovia was so large that it inadvertantly changed demographic proportions. Now, Lithuanians complain about Polish invaders of Vilnius while large part of problem was their own job.
4. Even in the XVIth century there was large gap between populous Poland proper and Lithuania. According to estimations of historians [I can give you sources at your request] there were three humans per square km in Lithuania and about 20-25 in overpopulated Polonia Minor].
5. Poland became large reservoir of workforce both to Lithuania and Ukraine. This fact is almost totally overlooked by Ukrainian historians.
5. First Union of Krevo 1385 was a Polish success mainly because it stopped Lihuanian pillage of the Eastern Poland's "wall". (at a time Lithuanians managed to ransack places located as far as Sandomierz!). Christening (second already after nearly 100 years of re-paganisation) and dynastical marriage between the Hungarian-born Poland's princess Hedwig (Yadviga) and Yagiellonian Duke Yagiello made this country more predictible.
6. The property structure in Lithuania was traditionally much different from a Polish one. The largest properties in Polonia Minor belonged to Tarnowski family, while in Polonia Mayor to GСrkas. They were roughly on the par with the richest bishops. They had a few hundred villages.
Poland was not a big land in spite of large population.
Just for comparison - fantastic wealths of Yanush Ostrogski included around one hundred towns and more than fifteen hundred villages! Lithuanian magnates like Radziwill, Pac, Gasztolt owned areas which could be counted rather as little dukedoms than territories.
7. Polish parliament was ruled by middle nobles and not magnates at the time of the Union. There were many protestant members at that time. The Union caused deep shift of power balance towards the magnates. Their selfish interest often collided with that of Rzeczpospolita as a state. Radziwills, Pacs and Sapiehas had enough money to buy votes of petty nobles. It was the axis of the state long decline.
8. Wilno, similar like Lwow was a peaceful town, and until 1654 it has never been conquered by any foreign troops. At that time it was real gem of East European architecture. Muscovian butchery was enhanced by setting the town aflame - really a barbaric act. Number of corpses was so high that they were stocked in layers.
9. The economic growth of Lithuania and Ukraine was beyond any doubt. Social tensions in Ukraine were of quite different nature than those in Lithuania or Poland. The Union changed laws accelerating thousands decisions of moving both directions. Polish cultural influences were driven by the attitude of the most powerful nobles rather than the King and parliament of Rzeczpospolita.
10. There are many interesting historic facts concerning loyalty of Polish and Lithuanian magnates to common principles of foreign policies of Rzeczpospolita. One little example: John Sobieski arrived with the army of Polish Crown to Vienna 1683 and relieved the besieged town from mortal danger of Ottoman Empire. Where was hetman John Sapieha with his Lithuanian Army? They were late of course! When many European armies under Sobieski's guidance united their effort on the Kahlenberg battlefield, Lithuanians were busy with ruthless pillaging of Slovakia on their clumsy way to Vienna thus ruining political goal of Rzeczpospolita to improve relations with the Kingdom of Hungary. Is it anything other than sabotage? In fact, almost the same scenario took place in Khotym several years earlier.
11. Serhii, I can give you more confusing examples, the most of them coming from the XVIIth century. You say "endless sorrow of Luthuania". Who represented Lithuanian Duchy? The upper classes I believe. Did Polish nobles opress their Lithuanian counterparts?
No they were all busy oppressing the poor in their countries.
True tragedy of Ukraine was that Rusyn/Ukrainian nobles virtually ceased to exist. It did not take place in Lithuania however. Lithuania's nobles could speak Polish and wear Polish clothes but they still thought Lithuanian.
Now Serhii let me present you a piece of good poetry of Adam Mickiewicz who was strongly pro-Lithuanian. His countrymen not one time complained about first line of his greatest poem Pan Tadeusz "Lithuania, my country -thou art like good health..."
The little masterpiece presented below can be treated like poetic joke but surely there is grain of historic truth in there:

I think it would be good to provide Ukrainian translation of this poem. Maybe genius interpreter Maksym Rylski managed to do it? His translation of the Pan Tadeusz is regarded as masterpiece by itself.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 4th July 2005 at 08:02]