Let us look closer at what Union of Lublin 1569 meant for Ukraine

[MiguelMichael]

you're wrong.Genetically Ukrainians are ancestors of Rusyns but mentally they aren't.Rusyn mentality evolved all the time to the XIXth or XXth century.you said Ukrainians didn't invent any complete national ideology.That's the problem.you also said Ukrainians from the west changed from passive to patriotic oppoisite to the east who were patriotic some ages ago.it is the basics.you are what you want to be not what you should.and Ukrainian who thinks he's Russian is Russian in fact.

another example similar to Ukraine is Austria.Austrian nationality has been created gradually.it didn't exist along with Habsburg dynasty.Austrians were German for real.they welcomed anschluss in 1938.they truly considered themselves a different nation after the war.
similarly with Ukrainians.they weren't always Ukrainians.they finally became Ukrainians when they all or most understood they are Ukrainians as one not Rusyns,locals,Galizians,Donians,Volhynians,Cossacks or whatever else = second part of 19th century.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Serhii

1. I could not even imagine that ▒ Nie pozwoliam ! ▒ came from Lithuanian parliament. It is interesting indeed.
2. The Union of Lublin was a real disaster for both Ukraine √Rus▓ and Lithuania.
3. As far as I know Lithuanians even tried to escape from Lublin , but were taken back from their way home. It was a turning point which brought only sorrow to us.
4. No one in Ukraine or Lithuania say anything different about that dammed Unia I hope. With Lithuanians we had pretty good relations. As for that time it was very tolerant and calm state ( not ideal for sure ! ).
5. But crazy and absolutely wild Polish magnates
turned into ruins both Ukraine-Rus and Lithuania. By the way it was the beginning of the end of Poland as well.

6. I agree with you that they could not rule the country appropriately with that stupid ▒Nie pozwoliam▓. The Lithuanian Duchy became weaker and weaker under Polish pressure , not only by itself. Even Polish kings were afraid of those nobles and did not know what to do. Very often they called for support to Zaporizhian Cossacks ( Wladyslaw 4 and others).
7. It was time of Protestant movement and religious wars in Europe. Having destroyed all protestants Poland turned into gloomy aggressive deeply Catholic country. Ukrainians were Orthodox at that time and had to defend their faith .
8. Ukrainians were well educated at that time , almost all could read and write. We had schools , printed books , etc. , but we were of another, Byzantium tradition. Poles could not agree with it. They tried to ▒save▓ us.
....
9. [Vishnevetski] family disappeared at all √ no one exist any more ! They were dammed forever with every Ukrainian soul. And here I▓d like to stress that Ukrainians NEVER adore their nobles ( unlike Polaks ) . We had many glorious ones , but we never depended on them. Some of them became Poles ( like crazy Jezemi z Wisniowca ) , some Russians later . Where are they now ? Ukrainians developed powerful folklore , keep their traditions .
10. Oh my , every pan traditionally is an object of jokes in Ukrainian folklore , especially if he is Polak. I think Polaks are very close to Russians in this case .

Serhii, I moved the above quote from the other thread "Ukraine nationalism" because it fits well here.
Here is my answer to your allegations:
1. I gave you historic facts. Are there still any doubts about it?
2. The Union itself was something opposite to a war, hence it can hardly be called a disaster. Khmyelnitski's rebelllion can really be called a disaster regardless of intention because it caused so much deaths and desolation.
I would agree that the Union was not advantageous for Ukraine but let me ask "what if not"? Would Lithuania have had enough military strength and resources to withstand rising power of Muscovy? Moreover, fast economic progress of Ukraine would be much slower without so many poor Polish settlers escaping oppresion in Poland proper and settling in Ukraine, ruthenizing so quickly. It seems that without the Union, Ukraine and all Lithuania would be in Muscovian hands already at Ivan the Terrible's times.
3. Yes, Lihuanians played their little games but they came back very soon when pressed by their Lithuanian Duke. At that time, the idea of incorporation of Volyn and Kievan lands into the Polish Crown was strongly supported by the local gentry. Everyone living at that time and being sober (honey-based alcoholic drinks from Kaunas were famous!) would confirm that the Union was not an act of tyrany.
4. It was delusional calm before Muscovian storm. Rzeczpospolita was the only state at that time being capable of challenging Ivan the Terrible and his successors.
5. As I had said hundred times before, you should rather say: the magnates of Rzeczpospolita i.e. Polish, Rusyn and Lithuanian magnates. Was it a beginning of Poland's end? (Almost) everything will have its end and earthly kingdoms
apply to this rule for sure. Yet, for people who have problems with dates, I will add:
1569 - beginning of Rzeczpospolita No 1.
1795 - end of Rzeczpospolita No. 1.
Quite a remote end, is not it?
6. Serhii, if you mean that our left hand was pressed by our right hand, then you are right but displaying Lithuania as an innocent victim of a Polish pressure thus leading to its collapse is as far from historic truth as "socialist" democracy from true democracy. Kings of Rzeczpospolita (not Poland alone) were mostly afraid of Lithuanian magnates!
7. Religious wars were not Polish specialty and except Silesia,which was ethnically Polish but was not any part of Rzeczpospolita, luckily there were no religious wars in the Polish Crown.
Your statement beginning with "Having destroyed all protestants" is a big historic error I have to encourage to you to more thorough study on the subject. You must not be aware that our recent prime minister Jerzy Buzek is a protestant.
8. Proofs, Serhii, proofs are badly needed! We must not forget that there were no Ukrainians at that times so how could they almost all read and write ???????????? BTW, ratio of literacy in Poland at that time is estimated roughly as 25% and it is regarded as impressive number.
9. I am ready to give you enough links to discussions of Ukrainians in this forums which contradict such unanimity.
Jarema was one of such Ukrainians:
http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...6&pagenumber=3
10. I think I have already made one trifling comment on it: One of my colleagues employed a Ukrainian lady as an apartment cleaner. He often adressed her using Pani (it is routine and kind way of addressing any adult in my country like madame). She was very surprised but did not say anything.
After the situation came back over and over she dared ask: Why do you adress me with a word reserved for the "polskie pany"? My colleague explained her as well as he only could. She became very happy to know that everyone including hers is the "Pan" or "Pani" in Poland now!
I am afraid that western people will find it difficult to fully understand funny context of the above.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 13th July 2005 at 19:01]

[Serhii]

Hi Zbyszek

Summer break is wonderful. I think I forget which bottoms to press on my computer Still do not want to go back to serious things √ I▓d better go the sea again. Hope you know that Jerzy Hoffman wants to make a movie about Ukrainian steppe. You can understand him only after seeing that magic powerful landscape in person. You can say what you want but it is the land of legends , cossaks glory and our historical pride.

I am pleased you summarized some my previous posts. I think I will try to answer them step by step. I think it would take days to discuss just the single issue of our discussion. So

1. I gave you historic facts. Are there still any doubts about it?

No , how could you think it ? But you should remember that very often we make different conclusions from the same facts. That liberum veto is a matter of jokes in our tradition. I told about it million times to my students. And every time I describe it as a prominent example of complete stupidity of Polish state.
I did not know it came to you from Lithuania , but for sure it could thrive only on Polish land. I am not sure if other people understand what we are talking about , so I▓d like to make this note

To readers :
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In Polish parliament ( Sejm ) every member of it could stand up and say ▒ I do not allow▓ ( Nie pozwoliam ) . After that any question should be postponed or banned . Many members of parliament were typical mad criminals and with such a crazy rule they had double crazy state . Neighboring countries suffered from it very much. Ukraine was among them.
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2. The Union itself was something opposite to a war, hence it can hardly be called a disaster. Khmyelnitski's rebelllion can really be called a disaster regardless of intention because it caused so much deaths and desolation.

It was impossible to live in that state. In 1648 year Ukrainians started their war for independence. Bohdan Khmelnicki was our leader.

To readers :
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Pay attention that often Polish historians call Khmelninci ( and all his followers ) criminals, rebellions etc. Let them say. Those people are our national heroes . We defended our land from ruthless invaders .
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3. Yes, Lihuanians played their little games but they came back very soon when pressed by their Lithuanian Duke. At that time, the idea of incorporation of Volyn and Kievan lands into the Polish Crown was strongly supported by the local gentry. Everyone living at that time and being sober (honey-based alcoholic drinks from Kaunas were famous!) would confirm that the Union was not an act of tyrany.

Lithuanians had nothing good from that Union as well. It was a national disaster for them as well. When I was in Kyiv 2 or 3 weeks ago I met two professors from university of Vilnius. They could not say a single good word about that Union. They still have many problems with its results.

To readers:
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Polaks very quickly took power to their hands. Then say said it was their land - Vilnius became Wilno ,all territory - Lithuanian area of Poland , Lithuanian culture was oppressed etc. We had the same situation in Ukraine . Suddenly Lviv became Lwow and Polacks became owners of our land . Both in Ukraine and Lithuania people have very negative attitude to those events. But some Polkas praise them.
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5. As I had said hundred times before, you should rather say: the magnates of Rzeczpospolita i.e. Polish, Rusyn and Lithuanian magnates

I am sorry Zbyszek but traditionally we do not make any difference among them. They served Polish king , originally were Polish ( or became them later ). No difference as for me .

6. Serhii, if you mean that our left hand was pressed by our right hand, then you are right but displaying Lithuania as an innocent victim of a Polish pressure thus leading to its collapse is as far from historic truth as "socialist" democracy from true democracy. Kings of Rzeczpospolita (not Poland alone) were mostly afraid of Lithuanian magnates!

I▓d like Lithuanians to say here something . I guess what I would hear . Hope you know as well.

8.! We must not forget that there were no Ukrainians at that times so how could they almost all read and write ????????????

Hm , then you can call us Marsians You are very similar to Russian chauvinists here √ it is amazing ! They say the same but from another side . Good friends in this question.
Our old state was called Kyivar Rus▓ and for centuries Ukrainians used this name as their native.
Not russkij ,rossijskij but rus▓kyj , rusyn . I know how you like to play with these words. For centuaries the name Ukrainians was banned in both Russia and Poland. I met in Lviv old ladies and they told me
▒Under Poland we did not know we were Ukrainians . They called us Rusyns ▒. I know you like to mansion such facts as well. What does it mean ? In any case they never called themselves Polaks or Moskals .
Good friends Polish and Russian chauvinists would be very pleased , but ┘..

We will talk later. Now I want to visit some Russian sites to give warm hello from their Polish counterparts. We all are talking scandal with Yushchenko▓s son at the moment. Ukr forums are burning indeed.

My best.

[Zbyszek]

I realize that Union of Lublin did not fulfill ambition od Rusyn gentry. Anyway, from European perspective it was a noble effort of uniting instead of dividing.
Lublin celebrates the anniversary today, on July 1 2009.
I would like to place my thanks here for particiapants of good historical debate taken place some time (years already!) ago.

[bm-21Lemko]

I dont know how this could be a good topic. the Union of Lublin would in turn over centuries try to eliminate the social and culture of past ukrainians through polonization. only could ukrainians make it to the top by adopting the adhered religion and accepting the adhered language. (catholicism and polish)

[Zbyszek]

Lemko, I believe that ANY historic topic can be good or bad depending on how hard you try to analyze the historic context. It seems that there was no good solution for Ukraine in the XVIth century. The Kyivan principality was definitely disintegrated at that time. Please, give me possible alternative scenarios for Rus /Ukraine. As for catholic invasion in an orthodox land I can agree but again, we have to see it in wider counter-reformation context of XVIIth century.
The similar discussion concerning the fall of Rzeczpospolita and her subsequent partition between three big political players (Russia, Prussian Kingdom and Austrian Empiry ) can be also very interesting and of course, the internal centrifugal forces leading to her disintegration have to be taken into account for completeness.
There is definite responsibility of the upper classes of Rus society for the decline. For me, when you cut the society/nation head off, the body loses the direction and chaos takes place. The ratio of the gentry to total population amounted to a few percent, nevertheless the ratio of responsibility was quite opposite, 99 per cent. It is interesting to know how it happened that thick social tissue of Kyivan Rus was so much thinned and torn and how it happened that Muscovy grew such a thick skin while Kyiv was dissolved and became history object after being a subject for centuries.

[bm-21Lemko]

I blame the corrupt officials who never looked at the commoners wherever they be Kyiv or Warsaw and those who chose higher status for their own benefit.

Though when ukrainians past were given a choice of autonomy within the commonwealth is rejected by the favorable Poles.

kyiv dissolved due to mongol invasion and the fall of constantinople.