Painfull events in common Polish - Ukrainian history...

[Bartosz]

Helo everybody!

I'm back from my summer(?) holidays. I hope that you folks haven't got bored with this board and my present mail will contribute to it's reanimation.

In the first mail I mentionned about Victor Poliszczuk - Ucrainian historican, having very negative opinion about OUN (Organization of Ucrainian Nationalists - known widely in Poland as UPA). I red few his publications about extermination of Poles on Wolyn, which according to some resources costed from 100.000 to 500.000 livings of the innocent civils. These acts were probably organized purposefully by OUN and have all attributes of the crimes against the humanity.

Up till now no Ucrainian politician hasn't expressed no regret for these events. It weighes on common Polish - Ucrainian relationships. What's your opinion about it?

[LM]

I wanted to, but I just could not let it go.
Your statement:
=============================================

Up till now no Ucrainian (UKRAINIAN) politician hasn't expressed no
regret for these events. It weighes on common Polish -
Ucrainian (UKRAINIAN) relationships.
===========================================

My question: How does it weighs?!!!

Did Polish armies, or State or governments never did anything wrong against innocent civilian Ukrainians? Did Ukraine got apologies for all those crimes? Should anybody waste their time to sit down and count if it was eye for an eye or couple of eyes missing and should be taken from Ukrainian or Polish side? Let it go men! Both Poland and Ukraine have so many problems, that it would be just a waste of time and recourses count whom wronged whom. I think better will be to discuss how both our countries would be able to reach prosperity nad happiness without killing each other or moving out, I saw enough Polaks and Ukies that left their countries just tring to survive and get a chance for a better future.

But if you just want a heated discussion, I hope you'll get it.

[Bartosz]

Thanks for all precise corrections, they were really impressive. 'Ukrainian' instead of 'Ucrainian' is just and proper, I checked in all accessible resources.

But I disagree as for the way of treating any crimes, no metter if they were originated by Polish or Ukrainian side. Treating them slightly [...Both Poland and Ukraine have so many problems, that it would be just a waste of time and recourses count whom wronged whom...] is avoiding learning from the past, what was maybe the biggest gain of Germans, and loose of Russians.

You are wrong if you accuse me of purification the Polish side[...Did Polish armies, or State or governments never did anything wrong against innocent civilian Ukrainians? ...]: they have, I know maybe more cases of the crimes commited by Polish army on Ukrainian civilians in the years 1945-1952 than you. And I consider that for the improvement of the common relationships in the future any governors of the Poland should express their regret for these acts of violence. I'm ashamed of them as a Pole.

But as a Pole I expect the same from the Ukrainian side, as the prove of the apt way of driving the conclusions: some Ukrainians were murders[as some Poles], they commited terrible crimes in the name of the love to their motherland, we are conscious of that, we confirm it simply to convince you that we know how to differenciate the wrong from the good.

Nothing less and nothing more. Prosperity is the one thing and the conscious the other one.

[Shevster]

I thought this would be an interesting topic, but I think we should start to look at creating harmony between Slavs, rather than looking for ways reap up the past.

I've seen the stupidity from both sides and quite frankly it makes me sick. Both countries suffered terribly as a result of Stalin. Help to heal each others wounds; lets not dig for new ones.

None of us are guilty for the actions of our ancestors, surely we should look to be building a future not living in the past.

If my family have no problems with the modern Germans (we're brews), surely the Polish and Ukrainians can do the same with each other.

That's all

Stepan

[Bartosz]

"None of us are guilty for the actions of our ancestors, surely we should look to be building a future not living in the past."
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you are wrong. We are if we justify them in the name of any ideology. Squaring up with the past is made in order to prevent from commiting similar atrocieties having mostly founds in nationalism. If any nation has uncleared accounts with the others it could be always suspected for the potential will of repeating them. The whole nations are responsible for the crimes of their rerpresentatives, even if they were in minority. Just because the rest was too tacit and not enough active to prevent the minority from comitting the crimes, often executed in the name of their good.

So is with the Russians who refuse to acknowlage any claims accusing them for the responsibility for crimes comitted on neighbouring nations. Unlike in the case of Germans, who took the responsibility for the crimes of their ancestors.

[StasUA]

No one will ever do it ... Germany was obligated to do anything everybody wanted them to. At the end of WWII there were millions and millions of people that would've loved to see Germany disappear from the political maps forever, they were just scared, that's why they took responsibility for the crimes they've committed.

Russians will never accept their crimes, in-fact, many of them think that Russia helped Ukraine, and other countries suppressed by them.

There will always be wars, what you cannot even imagine now, might come in reality tomorrow.
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Just to say something about Poland, - few days ago, I've realized how similar Polish and Ukrainian languages are. They are even more similar than Ukrainian and Russian.(Except that letters are different)
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Good luck to people of the planet Earth,
Stas



[This message has been edited by StasUA (edited 25 September 2000).]

[Bartosz]

Hello Mate!


"There will always be wars, what you cannot even imagine now, might come in reality tomorrow."
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hard argument. Discussing with prophets is an true challange.

"No one will ever do it " - why? Japans did, Poles (in theory they were in the victorious equipe), Lithuanians. The history likes to repeat (the euphenism).

"Germany was obligated to do anything everybody wanted them to."
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of course they were. Germans were under deep influence of the decades of criminal ideology. Imposing them consciousness of their criminality and the principles of the democracy was an good movement. Just that I estimate positively.


"At the end of WWII there were millions and millions of ..." - putting aside the motives that drived them in these sad days, at present they hovever don't feel anymore so strong fears... In German education underlining German crimes during WW2 is unchanged since 1952.


"Russians will never accept their crimes, in-fact, many of them think that Russia helped Ukraine, and other countries suppressed by them."
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not all of them. But some became conscious. Very instructive were particular demonstrations of single Russians during recent celebrations in Charkovsk and Miednoye. Sth changes. But won't be common without habitual eductaion.

But none of your arguments don't negate the moral need of condamnation of the crimes of the own nation. Good begining!

I don't mention that it's a way of enlisting the interlecutors for one purposes...