Who is the most important historical figure in Ukrainian history?

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Yes, Volodymyr has a drop of Varangian blood. Actually, all the Kyivan dinasty of Ruricks which later became the Moskow royal dinasty comes from Northmen. The first Rurick was actually any Scandinavian adventurer who was looking for own kingdom.



What century is you school located in? Are you sure Adam and Eva ever existed anywhere, except the pages of Bible? May be you meant some nice monkeys who "were hanging from the trees, stealing honey from the bees".

Novgorod and around tribes are direct ancestors of Russians. Kyiv and around tribes are direct ancestors of Ukrainians.



Hopefully, this will open you blinded eyes about people's authentic rankings of popularity. Shevchenko and Lesya Ukrainka are in the list too.

Democracy is good thing, it helps to devide corns from tares.

My replies:

1. I said nothing about Ruriks, I just said that Vlamidmir was one of the Kievan Rus rulers. Following your thiniking, I should say that Great Moravian state rulers were Poles only because Krakow used to be a part of this state.

2. I am sure that Homer exsisted - I am only not sure it was our Homer or another individual named Homer who wrote the "Iliad" poem ha ha.

3. I do think Russians have right to think the same as Ukrainians as to Kievan Rus. The problem is that Muscovy rulers chose another way of thinking and deliberately broke links with old Kievan state.

4. Bohdan ordered to kill his own beloved wife in a cruel way. Bandera - the top terrorist, proud of it. Democracy is as good only as the people who implement it. Democracy is far from perfect. Sometimes it can be really a curse. For both players mentioned about democracy was an empty word. Placing them democratically on the very top is tricky.
Max, many thanks for your eye opening thoughts.

BTW I need to make a little correction to my own previous post - may name is ZBi-gniew and it means Deprived of Anger (not Fear).

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

I said nothing about Ruriks, I just said that Vlamidmir was one of the Kievan Rus rulers. Following your thiniking, I should say that Great Moravian state rulers were Poles only because Krakow used to be a part of this state.

This was reply to bm-21Lemko, not to you. Escape commenting my replies to other members.

I do think Russians have right to think the same as Ukrainians as to Kievan Rus. The problem is that Muscovy rulers chose another way of thinking and deliberately broke links with old Kievan state.

It's just ridiculous to state modern Kyivan are not direct cultural and genetic successors of ancient Kyivans - they live in same city and pray in same churches.

Bohdan ordered to kill his own beloved wife in a cruel way. Bandera - the top terrorist, proud of it.

There are sun-spots on the Sun. However, I don't think Ukraine-Poland relations have big future if Poles understand conversation as primitive come-down of our national heroes.

Let the Ukrainian people decide, not any chauvinistic Kachinsky's eagles of passage.

BTW I need to make a little correction to my own previous post - may name is ZBi-gniew and it means Deprived of Anger (not Fear).

I actually though it means something like Horror Flying On The Wings Of Night or something like that.

[Max_the_Highlander]

With all this picking I completely forgot...

There is offical news site of project "The Great Ukrainians". It's available on Ukrainian and Russian languages. The project is conducted by Italian-Canadian journalist Savik Shooster, the Ukrainian "Guru Of Democracy":

The Great Ukrainians

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

With all this picking I completely forgot...

There is offical news site of project "The Great Ukrainians". It's available on Ukrainian and Russian languages. The project is conducted by Italian-Canadian journalist Savik Shooster, the Ukrainian "Guru Of Democracy":

The Great Ukrainians

I looked into the site you gave a link to and I noticed that nationality of at least two candidates may not be Ukrainian. I understand that the contest formula is broad and "Ukrainian" means more than nationality alone, yet it is worth noticing that no one confirmed nationality of Bohdan Khmyelnitski (candidate number 7) for sure - he could be Ruthenian or Polish or maybe of mixed family. Both great historians Kostomarov and Khrushevski had to say "probably" when explaining his nationality. The same applies to his social status - probably of the gentry/petty noble (shlakhta). The candidate number 10 - Jaroslaw the Wise was almost surely Ruthenian (Rusyn).

As to Kachinsky or his twin brother - no reasonably thinking Pole can think of him like of a pattern to place in the gallery of national heroes. Hence, your rhetoric is absolutely missing the point. We in Poland have greater degree of scepticism in this respect than it looks like in among Ukrainians.
I personally dislike any official/governmental history version because the state support of historians has its price. One of our best postwar historian Pawel Jasienica was persona non grata in his communist homeland. Yet, his views were visionary and friendly for our East European neighbours.
Do not get our of your nerves Max and stop shouting. Your "shut up" was a display of a childish fury and a futile gesture.
And I do keep thinking that both Russians and Ukrainians do have legitimate right to feel themselves descendants of Kievan Rus, at least in the cultural and religious sense (but not in the continuity of political leadership).

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

I looked into the site you gave a link to and I noticed that nationality of at least two candidates may not be Ukrainian... The candidate number 10 - Jaroslaw the Wise was almost surely Ruthenian (Rusyn).

Because I watch this big project I know it was decided so by big jury which consisted of known politicians, cultural workers, famous spotsmen etc… when they decided about criteria they threw away “nationality”, ”area of living”, “language” etc as strict criteria, instead they suggested the idea of “strong links with Ukraine or how much was made for Ukraine”.

Let’s say famous Kyivan cardio surgeon Amosov is Russian but he is great Ukrainian because he was working in Ukraine and saved many lives and so he got to top 10.

As about Yaroslaw the Wise I never heard yet he “was almost surely Ruthenian (Rusyn)”. First of all “Rusyn” is just European label for Ukrainian inhabitants of Carpathians as lemkos, boykos, hutsuls etc, so that’s not ethnicity by itself, just external definition. Second, Yaroslaw never was lemko, he was son of Volodymyr The Great, he spent some time as appointed ruler of Novgorod but those guys are not Ruthenians, they are forefathers of Russians.

And I do keep thinking that both Russians and Ukrainians do have legitimate right to feel themselves descendants of Kievan Rus, at least in the cultural and religious sense (but not in the continuity of political leadership).

Possibly, in cultural and religious sense. Russian ethnicity doesn’t come from Moskow as some lame amateurs think. They come from northern Rus group of tribes which is same old as southern tribes (ancestry of Ukrainians). These northern tribes grew up around such ancient cities as Novgorod, Murom and Smolensk.

However this has nothing to do with direct line of succession between ancient Kyivans and modern Kyivans so in our country great Kyivan princes are considered exactly as Ukrainians.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

....
As about Yaroslaw the Wise I never heard yet he “was almost surely Ruthenian (Rusyn)”. First of all “Rusyn” is just European label for Ukrainian inhabitants of Carpathians as lemkos, boykos, hutsuls etc, so that’s not ethnicity by itself, just external definition. Second, Yaroslaw never was lemko, he was son of Volodymyr The Great, he spent some time as appointed ruler of Novgorod but those guys are not Ruthenians, they are forefathers of Russians.


....

The term Ruthenian-Rusyn varied across centuries. So, if not Ruthenian, how to name Yaroslav's nationality? Ukrainian definitely does not fit. Ukraine was not born yet by that time. Ukrainians were even later than Ukraine.

Max, Read something about Ruthenia. Ruthenia (Rus) was a homeland of Ruthenians hence calling Yaroslav Ruthenian is logical
Ruthenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



excerpt: " Ruthenia: Essentially, the word is a Latin rendering of the ancient place-name Rus. Today, the historical territory of Rus, in the broadest sense, is formed with part(s) of the lands of Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, a small part of northeastern Slovakia and a
narrow strip of eastern Poland".


So, do not grab Rus for yourself only. Be more generous Max ha ha.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Oh those Wiki historians... their thinking is so close to delirium.

Either state or country Ruthenia never existed, there always was Kyivan Rus. And its population was ancient-Rus ethnos which consisted of many tribes and apanage princedoms.

If that's any external label, may be some use it for Kyivan Rus though as far as I know they mostly apply it to modern Carpatho-Ukrainians. It's just not acceptable in wider sense if to think strictly.

Here we don't use it and don't want to. There is only state which existed in that time and other names are not proper - but how could lame amateurs know that, really?

I read many books of scientists about Kyivan Rus and I'm often guest in Kyiv but no one uses this term either in solid works or modern life.

It's something external and not natural for Kyivan consciousness so let's throw to the trash can.