Ukraine nationalism

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Serhii
Zbyszek - as you see Yulia is all Ukrainian leader. Some people support her , some not √ it is normal . She was very honest when saying about Polish cemetery in L▓viv. She did not flatter Polacks , but very diplomatically showed Ukrainians' attitude to that event. The problem is not in cemetery , but in what Polacks WROTE on those monuments. Most Ukrainians refuse it and won▓t ever accept. As you probably know only about 500 people took part in ceremony from Ukrainian side. L▓viv took this event calmly , but wasn▓t satisfied let▓s say.

Full discussion is here http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...2&pagenumber=1

My best.

[/b]

Hello Serhii,
We luckily live in times when people's views can be freely expressed. MishaAverko would not agree with me but there is thin line between freedom and anarchy.
Serhii, let me explain a 'Lviv thing'.

Consider the following, please:

1. Lvov was annexed to Poland more than six centuries ago along with Halychyna. I do not want to dispute validity of this conquer and I would only like to point out that the conflict was NOT about nationality but about heredity of ruler's rights. The area used to be alternatively tossed between Rus and Poland.
2. Lvovians have been living in peace for centuries and there were no major fights between nations inhabiting this marvellous town except the year 1918.
3. Khmyelnitski besieged Lviv in 1648 and Lvovians surely did not consider him a friend. There was tremendous fear of him among the town community and it was surely for a reason!
4. Four religions have been developing side by side in Lviv for centuries: Orthodox, Greek Catholic, Roman Catholic and Jewish. Armenian Christian rite can also be considered.
5. Lviv is a treasure of beautiful and rich architecture. Could enslaved, dominated people generate so much beauty?
6. Lvov, along with the whole Halychyna was annexed by the Austrian Empire at the end of XVIIIth century. Happily, Austrains emperors used to be liberal rulers. They had no radical changes in mind and they did not try to change national composition of the town. It remained inhabited predominantly by the Poles and later on by the Jews.
7. The XIXth century was marked by sudden surge of nationalist feelings in Europe. In spite of this, Lviv remained a haven of tolerance.
8. The year 1918/1919 became a stage of bitter Polish-Ukrainian national conflict. Male Polish inhabitants of Lviv were in the newborn Polish Army fighting sometimes far away from the town. The Ukrainians attacked the town from the outside.
9. The town was defended by the Polish youth along with British infantrymen and American pilots.
10. After three months of fierce fights, the Ukrainians lost control of Lviv and whole Halychyna. Lwow became Polish again until 1939. The military cemeteries: Polish and Ukrainian were built in the area adjacent to (beutiful) civil Lychakov cemetary. All involved fighters sincerely believed they would give their lives for their motherland.
11. The original plate on the Polish cemetary said: To the heroic fallen for Poland 1919-1921.
12. Lviv was grabbed by the Nazi Germans and the Soviets during WWII. Polish population of Lviv could be found in Siberia or the Kazachstan steppes. Second wave of relocation happened after WWII. Now, only around 20000 Poles live in Lviv. Some of Poles could trace their roots down from the XIVth century. Prewar population of Lwow reached 500 000 people!
13. The Soviets devastated both cemetaries after WWII.
14. The "People's Autumn 1989" in Europe could not omit Lviv. There was a plan of restorating both desecrated cemetaries.
15. After years of tough talks, the compromise was achieved between Polish and Ukrainian side. Text on the plate was changed to: Here is a place of rest of a Polish soldier fallen for Motherland. Ukrainian side reluctantly agreed to accept monuments of British and American soldiers in the cemetary.



Can it still be controversial?

I would like some people who are not Poles or Ukrainians living in Poland or Ukraine to judge the issue objectively.

Serhii, I found it not tactful that Yulia, as a diplomat, selected such unfortune timing for expressing her views. It sounded like she disavowed effort taken by President Yushchenko.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 4th July 2005 at 08:44]

[Serhii]

Zbyszek

I was very interested in reading all this long-long http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...?threadid=4485

I really expected for something original , but failed . Sorry it is typical current propaganda from ran by Pawlowski centers. They still are very active in Russia. Once I visited their sites ( with all those Krasniakov , Kaverin and company ) - felt like entering Russia under Nikolas 1 or Aleksander 3 . No fresh air .

Why don▓t them mention that when they under ( Nikolas 1 and then Nikolas 2 ) invaded Western Ukraine first of all they burnt Ukrainian books and Churches . In Eastern Ukraine they banned Ukrainian language at all ( even folk songs couldn▓t be printed ). That▓s typical Russian policy , nothing new .

It would be much more interesting ( I expected ) if such letter came somewhere from the US or Canada and not from poor lost in time pro Russian newcomers , but old immigrant. Ivan tackled a very interesting idea of ▒moskvofils▓ root of such a letter. Hm , it could be a real treasure. Maybe they do not have any supporters any longer in America ? I▓d like to ask here Dobko and Kathy if they heard anything about so called Carpathian-Rusyn Church in Canada and America . This church was very big in Canada. I do not know , just I▓d like to ask about them and their attitude towards Ukrainian matters . Maybe any old moskofils ideas are alive there ?

Those moskvofils in Western Ukraine were quite popular in the middle of 19 century . They received great support from Russia . Could you imagine someone from Western Ukraine speaking Russian language at that time ? It was impossible. So they invented so called ▒ Jazychije ▒ . It is a special term for the kind of language they used in their newspapers and books . People did not understand Russian and they twisted language as they could to make it understandable - it▓s a real fun to look at it. In Ukraine any mosvofils ideas failed forever - it is not serious at all. When real Russians came in 1939 all people saw who those moskvofils were. It▓s just a part of history now in Ukraine.

In politics and abroad it could be another. Once upon a time during Gorbachov▓s perestroika I watched on TV a personal interpreter of American presidents . His name was Zarichniak ( only Ukr could be ) and his roots were somewhere in Ukr Bukovyna ( he told). He spoke Russian ( learnt it as an interpreter ) , but he was sure he was ┘ Russian.

[BlueandGold]

[Kathy]

I▓d like to ask here Dobko and Kathy if they heard anything about so called Carpathian-Rusyn Church in Canada and America . This church was very big in Canada. I do not know , just I▓d like to ask about them and their attitude towards Ukrainian matters .

I never heard of the Carpathian-Rusyn Church. The first Ukrainian to emigrate and start mass emigration to Canada, Ivan Pylypiw, specifically recruited an Orthodox priest for the first Ukrainian settlement in Canada, in Starr, Alberta. He did this because though baptized Uniate, he viewed the Uniate Church as Polish.

The Church built in the settlement became the subject of a lawsuit between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, when the Catholic Church also sent a priest to the settlement and later, to the region. The Orthodox Church won the lawsuit, largely due to Ivan Pylypiw's testimony.

In travelling the towns of the original Ukrainian settlements in northeastern Alberta, one will notice the landscape of churches, usually 2 - one Orthodox, one Catholic (relatively few Uniate - only in the city) - in every town which originally, was built and settled by Ukrainian immigrants. Virtually all these immigrants came from Galicia, Bukhovyna and Lemko regions - i.e. - Polish controlled regions of Ukraine. So, it is a sight to see Orthodox churches in these towns, spreading over hundred of miles, and where the populations who settled the region and built these churches were virtually all baptized as in Uniate churches.