WWII vets

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Unbreakable

All written above reminds me soviet propaganda - manipulating facts and figures - in order just to hide murderous deeds of occupants...

In order to hide what? The article claims that Poles DID indeed mass murder over 100 Ukrainians in Pavlokoma. The article is making claims about Ukrainians provoking the massacre and about the smaller number of victims, but it is not denying the deed itself in any way, but actually confirming it.

Nothing strange - Soviets and Poles (and fascists Germans) were occupants on our ethnic historical lands - so their propagandists were creating so-called "proper history" - making myths of "UPA murderers" and AK-NKVD-SS "heroes"...

"UPA murderers" is not a myth but historical truth. Currently, very few people,even in Ukraine, deny the fact that UPA mass murdered thousands of Polish civilians. Sure, justifications are being made, but almost nobody denies the fact of mass murders of Polish civilians done by UPA.

About victims on both (Polish and Ukrainian) sides - they were - but Poles were first who started repressions against Ukrainians - on Ukrainian historical territory. Ukrainian actions were in retort - defensive.

I think you should read more about OUN and UWO activity before the war, with special emphasis on political murders commited vs Poles and Ukrainians alike. (yes, yes, brave Ukrainian nationalists murdered their kinsmen as well)

Also, please read more about the ethnic cleansing in Volyn done by UPA and compare it with Hitler's "Lebensraum" theory and tell me how is it "defensive".

Poles were occupants and invaders - and Ukrainian fought for their freedom on Ukrainian ethnic lands...

OMG one more victim of propaganda. Ukrainians sure fought for freedom, but UPA did not fight for any freedom, at least not in modern democratic sense of the word. Please educate yourself about internal Ukrainian vs Ukrainian conflicts before and during WWII, and how did Bandera's followers treat Ukrainians who disagreed with them - pure totalitarism, same kind of "patriotism" that Hitler had for Germany.


Michael

[Unbreakable]

Boring┘ √ a lot of words and not much sense in them┘
About comparisons √ even before WW2 Poland was much closer to fascist/stalinist SS/NKVD ideology/technologies √ Bereza Kartuska concentration camp for Ukrainian patriots etc..
And writing about ⌠Lebensraum■ was really stupid √ so Polish occupants/colonists were greedy ones who came for cheap land to Ukrainian historical ethnic territories. Not enough land they had in Poland?
And Volynian massacre was ignited from London - by Polish government in exile √ they hoped to get Ukrainian Volyn▓ and Galychyna back after WW2. Anyway they succeeded to keep Lemkivshchyna (homeland of my parents), Holmshchyna and Nadsiannia √ owing to complaisant cooperation of new Polish fuhrers/generalsecretaries with Stalin.
And phrase ⌠┘UPA did not fight for any freedom, at least not in modern democratic sense of the word┘■ was really ridiculous √ what democracy could exist in the liberation war on three fronts against three sorts of bloody occupants? Should they organize free election/referendum for AK/SS/NKVD murderers?

Not interested in this discussion.
It was (and still is) our land.
As Shevchenko wrote √

⌠V svoyiy hati √ svoya j pravda,
I syla I volia■
(In own house √ own is truth,
And power, and freedom)

Slava Ukrayini! √ Geroyam Slava!

Slava Naciyi! √ Smert▓ Vorogam!

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Unbreakable

About comparisons √ even before WW2 Poland was much closer to fascist/stalinist SS/NKVD ideology/technologies √ Bereza Kartuska concentration camp for Ukrainian patriots etc..

Yes, existence of Bereza Kartuska concentration camp is proof of totalitarian elements of pre-WW2 Poland and of similiarity to Nazi Germany and USSR.

Still, the Ukrainian nationalists were extremely close to Nazi Germany ideology, much much more than Poland.

One small sample of their ideology, a leaflet of UWO ("Ukrainian Military Organisation", which was later incorporated into OUN), printed in 1929 in Lviv, said:

English:

"Blood is needed - we will give sea of blood! Terror is needed - let's make it hellish! Sacrifice of material goods is needed - we will leave ourselves nothing. Let's not be ashamed of murder, pillage and arson. In combat there are no ethics. Ethics in war are left-overs of slavery, put by the victors upon the vanquished"

Polish:

"Trzeba krwii - dajmy morze krwii! Trzeba terroru - uczyńmy go piekielnym!
Trzeba poświęcić dobra materialne - nie zostawmy sobie niczego. Nie wstydźmy
się mordСw, grabieży i podpaleń. W walce nie ma etyki. Etyka na wojnie to
pozostałości niewolnictwa, narzucone przez zwycięzcСw pokonanym"

Source: Trudne Sąsiedztwo - Stosunki polsko-ukraińskie w X-XX
wieku" - Karol Grunberg, Bolesław Sprengel, printing house "Książka i Wiedza",
2005.


The fragment speaks about being not ashamed of murder, pillage and arson and that there are no ethic in war. This is essentially the same lack of morals that was the attribute of communists and Nazis.

And writing about ⌠Lebensraum■ was really stupid √ so Polish occupants/colonists were greedy ones who came for cheap land to Ukrainian historical ethnic territories. Not enough land they had in Poland?

Poland did indeed conduct 'colonial' policy toward Ukrainians, but it does't change the fact that UPA's attitude toward Poles was very similiar to Hitler's attitude toward Jews - and both led to genocide attempt.

And Volynian massacre was ignited from London - by Polish government in exile √ they hoped to get Ukrainian Volyn▓ and Galychyna back after WW2.

How exactly "ignited"? Volynian massacre was done by UPA, not Polish goverment. What you write is like writing "Holocaust was ignited by Jews, it's their fault that they have provoked Hitler".

And phrase ⌠┘UPA did not fight for any freedom, at least not in modern democratic sense of the word┘■ was really ridiculous √ what democracy could exist in the liberation war on three fronts against three sorts of bloody occupants? Should they organize free election/referendum for AK/SS/NKVD murderers?

Listen, I know you will not believe me so let me say something productive: learn more about OUN, UWO and UPA, and learn more about political murders done vs OTHER UKRAINIANS done by those organisations. For example, read about actual FIGHTING of UPA-B vs UPA-M.
If you don't know anything about that, this discussion is pointless, because you do not know enough about history yourself and still you disbelieve things I write.

Not interested in this discussion.

Of course- you are 'not interested' cause accepting things I write would shatter your nationalistic mythology and would hurt your emotions. Ok, don't discuss, keep living in fantasy just like people who think Hitler or Stalin was a hero.




Michael