Dissapearance of national states in EU!

[Alkas]

Hello,
the speed of integration in the European Community increases. There are no boundaries, a common army is planned to be organized and so on. However, in East Europe nationalism and national states are still predominant. Ukraine, for example, never had a national state and that's why it is trying to build one. But in Western Europe nationalism is a topic of yesterday. Should we expect some conflicts within and outside the EU?

WBR

[johnstruthers]

Excellent topic, Alkas. I think that to suggest that nationalism is yesterday's topic in western Europe is too great a leap, however. There is a dilution, to be sure, from two causes: ethnic integration, and a certain realism afoot. But the most virorous arguments within these countries still concerns cultural issues tied to national identities.

I believe you are correct in suggesting that we have to endure a period of nationalistic firming up in Eastern Europe while the Soviet era is shaken off. I think all of these countries are capable of setting aside poisonous differences in favor of integrating under common interests, over the long term. Ukraine is finding common cause with its neighbors on ecological and economic issues. There are also some interesting experiments underway in defense issues that would transcend nationalisms. The linkages would be historic.

I don't think nationalistics will be the driving factors in the settling out of Eastern Europe. These factors, and factions, seem to be secondary or tertiary, in daily practice. The "movers and shakers" are building alliances across borders in industry and commerce. There is no shame in, nor fear of, foreign partners in emerging enterprises.

In Odessa a few years back, the Turks invaded, but this time they conquered with investment, not swords. Jews and Turks found themselves creating new ventures together. Stunning stuff, if you think about it.

But where do you see it going, Alkas?

[Alkas]

John, I think that you▓re right when you say, nowdays economy is more important that politics and the last depends on it. That▓s why nationalism can not increase in Eastern Europe as it may had developed in XIX or XX century. Here, in EU politics only regulates social questions, trying to prevent 100% free market that is closely connected with big poverty. In the USA politics is more liberal (some people say, in Europe reigns pure socialism comparing to the States). If Eastern Europe succeeds to overcome the communistic past by removing all the remainders of that era (including all the civil servants) it could be possible to weaken the nationalisic explosion (that is coming to light today by organizing political nationalistic fronts which consist of former CP-members). But I don▓t think that it could be fulfilled so fast. Today, politicians could easily give another ideology to the masses called nationalism. That▓s why EU must react (indirectly) by supporting some new and young forces that lean on non-ideologic free market.

[StasUA]

I think that nationalism could become a big problem in "CENTRAL EUROPE" which is Eastern Eruope in your way of thinking

There is a politicla-party in Ukraine called "UNA-UNSO" it got an important place in Ukrainian government and to me it looks very nationalistic, and even pro-fascist. And I do not know current exact situation there, I mean could it become main party in Ukraine or not, but if it is then it is dangerous.


Patriotism and peace to Ukraine, no nationalism!

[grandma]

<i>But in Western Europe nationalism is a topic
of yesterday.
</i>

Yes? What about Basque terrorists? What about Bretons?

[johnstruthers]

Alkas, I just have to agree with you. First, I think the EU will succeed in preventing rollicking, frolicking, leaping, bounding free-market capitalism from destroying the social system. And the ties with non-ideological trading partners will somewhat dampen enthusiasms for nationalistic wackos. Everyone must continue to make progress, though, as it is so easy for these (you correctly say former CP) types to get people excited when times are hard by waving flags. It's the only path they can see to returning to power.

The problem is, while Marx may have been a poor social philosopher, he was a smart and accurate economist. The initial stages of capital formation create a lot of poverty. Fortunately, the World Bank's quick-and-easy formula for national wealth has been discredited by recent practice, so no one is any longer ashamed to suggest that governments have a responsibility to protect the welfare of the people.

[Alkas]

I had to agree with grandma that nationalism
comes to light territories with national minorities. but what I was thinking about were nationalistic state doctrines in France and Germany in XIX century (ethnic boundaries = state boundaries)