Ukraine - Poland

[TuchajBay]

Hi Lina
THe truth about Hmelnicki is only one ,and is not as old and well documated.Russians put this into difrent prospoective as a liberotor of Ukrainian populations from Polish opression (to be exact from Polish Aristocrasy)
but in riality was actualy Ukraininan Aristocrasy,very pro
kingdome,at least these people could see a denger coming out from other countries.So that version was more or less adopted by you people too.Just everybody forgot to mentions
how much paridise there was under Russians.
You are right there was no paradise living in Polish Union
with all these wars going all around with Tatars ,Turkey,
Moskaw ,Sweeden,and Moldavia etc.
but what chances did you will have on its on.The Tatars
were very strong at that time and allied with Turkey.
They will overide you in short time.And they were brutal and they have no mercy for slavic people,I know that, I am
Tatar and study theirs history very close.If you were under theirs dominations or Turkish your languages and religion could disapair in short time.
Of course you were not match for Russians.and you know what happened to you after they took you over
So what other options you had at that time ,none.
The most logical options was stay in the Union with Poland and the rest of Commonwealth and fight everybody as much as posible and in the process of evlotions get better and better rights and in do time when international situations
develop better time to ask for total independence ,just like Czech did in 1918 seperating themself from Austria.
Your religion was more secure in Union then enething else.
Union was multi religions state,and all religions were equal ,there was revalisation between them for souls but
there were not forcfull conversion either way. Most of the Kings were catholic but not all of them.
Yes the Poles were a minority to sertny degree ,if you take Lithuanians ,Bialosrusian ,Russin, Prussians Jews ,Tatars
and the rest of the crowd the Poles could be not more then
25 to 30 %.Yes we accept catholic religion from Poland ,they did not force Lithuanian to it ,they accepted
as everybody were accepting reliogion from the nighboor most of the time.Poles accepted from Czech.Lithuanian prefer accept from Poles rather from Teutonic Knights ,knowing what happened to orginal Prussians .
Yes Romans were a minority in their Kingdome but look how they were smart and develope into hughe empire witch lasted for centures ,it was bad no I do not think so .Id did lot of great thinks ,and the latin language was spread all europe for centuries.You can hate Russians as much as you would like to ,they were mean ,but making eguasions between
them and Poles is not fair for Poles.The Poles did some bad thinks here and there ,so you did some bad things for them to,but draging the old foe for centures it does not have a sence from mind point of view.And again your country couold benefit lot more by having good relations with Poland as Poland is very well advance with these new market economy and is allready with Nato plus almost in EC ,so its secure itself from Russian influence ,and that what you guys try do it too ,Who can help you more a nighboor or some distance country.Take example from Poland and Germany ,there was lot of blood and suffering over last 200 years and is over ,they fund the way to overcome that and establish new relations .You guys could do the same with Poland and others nighbooring countries on west side ,
If your vcovermant fail with that then slowly will fall under Russian influence again,but these time difrent way not with military but economicaly.
I guess should be enough for now.
Here is a link for very good web side witch deals with Hmielnicki times.

http://www.polisharmies.cjb.com/

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[Pierogies_4_Life]

I'm wondering what would happen if all the Slavic countries formed an economic Union sort of like the EU. The EU doesn't support us very well. The Germans are absolutely against the slavic countries to join the EU since they believe we will be a very cheap labour and they would take away the EU people's jobs!

[TuchajBay]

That will be a good idea ,but imposible to make.The Slavic countries still busy hating each others and not trusting each other.Still the balst of History is hunging there and not going away .And in union the thinks like that have to disapier.Slavic people in Europe suffer the most over centuries.Why ? the most naive people of Europe,easy to manipulate by others,plus very hyper.Do not understand what working togheter means.Will make the deal with devil
even just to make point against adversary.
Sorry for that rud comments but there is some truth in it.

[Lina]

You might be interesed in reading Slavic Unity thread in the Politics section...It has already been discussed with a huge amount of flames going in different directions!

[steve_vlasenko]

Go away for a few days and return to find a Pol nationalist on the site again. Lithuanian, yer right and I'm a Frenchman.

Must we go over this crap again with someone blinded by the loss of the Polish empire.

P4L, you've got to see why there can not be any unity within Slavs. To get unity with this little fellow entails the acceptance of Polish bigoted view of history. Come on TuchajBay, bring up Norman Davis.

This un-referenced pile of bilge has been gone over before and if we are to go over it again, then bring referenced material to the table not some inane bigoted drivel.

Lina, if you want to take issue with my tack then feel free, it's just when one has studied Ukrainian history in one of the foremost institutions in the world and have been through the same arguments TWICE one tend to get sick of bilge.

Vlas.

[Pierogies_4_Life]

Next time Vlas read the post before you start writing comments, I think your illeterate. Since it would seem you can't read.

I just stated an opinion, not that I want a union. Maybe you should study English since you can't tell an opinion from a belief.

I think POland was a great Empire, but time has to go on, every nation had it's time of glory. Anyways are you a communist or something? Do you understand economic union? No Politics just trading and economics. No tax between the countries, no sanctions!

You get it or do I need to explain it to you?

[steve_vlasenko]

I would brush up my own English before attacking someone elses, if I were you. This is the exact reason you'd have made a terrible moderator of a Ukrainian site.

The points were made to the other pointless bilge waffler. His entire post is an un-referenced Polish historical rant which I object to. As a member of this board and someone who believes historical debate should be supported I'll continue to object to it.

As for an economic union, there is absolutely nothing a ridiculous romantic can ever tell me about it. Someone with actual knowledge, then definitely, I'm all ears. I work in Eastern Europe and have dealt with the EU and TACIS etc for years, so any romantic idea ridden people looking for an insight into reality are free to ask questions.

Vlas.