Is Ukraine really Ukraine?

[StasUA]

Kievan Rus is a present Ukraine, but why Ukraine? People that lived there were called "Russians"
Then when Ukraine was occupied by Polish and other countrys, Ukraine was almost nothing, everybody
were poor and it was a dark period of Ukrainian history, Moscovy Kniajestvo called them s
selves Russians(Just like all the other Kniajestvos in Kievan Rus) But then they began call
Southern lands "Ukraine" which comes from word "Okraina". So, should Ukraine be called "Russia"?

[johnstruthers]

I had understood that "Ukraine" derived from "kraj," the edge, and U Kraina, the place at/with (u) the edge of the kingdom. Both Russian and Ukrainian evolved from the language of Kievan Rus, but the distance caused an evolving difference, based on the same roots. Hence, Ukrainian as spoken in L'viv is very close to Polish (I argue that it is, in fact, Polish dialect, written in Cyrillic), and Ukrainian as spoken in Kiev on television is much closer to Russian.
The Ukrainian kings and princes had a strong relationship to their cousins in St. Petersburg. I need a little help in recalling when and how Ukraine really became a distinct entity, and please correct me where I'm mistaken. Parenthetically, regarding the language shift, Russian is the language of choice in Sumy Oblast (my blood comes from Okhtirka, Akhtyrka in Russian, in Sumy Oblast, and we spoke Russian), on the eastern edge of "The Edge."

[StasUA]

That is not what i'm talking about, I dont care about the language at this moment. What i'm saying is in 5-13th centuries, when (Present) Russia did not existed yet, and Ukraine was called "Kievan Rus" the people that lived there, called them selves "Russians" and sometimes they called Ukraine "Russia" - that is why I think that real Ukrainian name should be "Russia" or "Rus(Which comes from the name of a river Ros in Bila Cirkva)" And a name of present Russia should be something else.

[johnstruthers]

We're really saying the same thing: Ukraine wasn't Ukraine except with reference to a relocated capital. Before that, indeed, it was Russia. The language part of that, at least the origins of "Ukraine," is important in that it defines the place as the edge in reference to a new point. I think it is a large leap to say that Russia should have called itself something else. But Russians are not true "Rus," so your point is taken. If we are seeking perfect justice, we could, for argument, deprive the Russians of the right to the name. In that case, Ukraine is Russia, but what then is the place called Russia? Do you have a proposed substitute? Maybe Glavnaya Slaviya?

[StasUA]

Actually if Kiev was center of Kievan Rus and it led to creation of all slavic lands, then Russia should be called Ukraine or "The Edge" "Okraina" So I dont know what to think, but it looks like that Russia is Ukraine and Ukraine is Russia

[johnstruthers]

Hmmm. You mean...you're actually a Russian?

[StasUA]

hehe, I dont know... Lets leave it the way it is :O)