Ukraine-Poland-Russia-Lithuania

[volodymyr_gusak]

Hi guy's I have just found this forum and got very engaged :-). I am just about to graduate from the United World College of the Atlantic, and here we have 70 nationalities out of 350 students. Most Understanding appears to be between us called "Easten Europeans" at the same time, I have arguments with the Russian guy etc.
From the discussion Ucraine-Poland it becomes clear that Poles in general do not like Ukrainians and vise versa, the same with Russians etc.
Why are these nations so angry with each other? Poland is developing much faster than Ukraine and Lithuania is even better. These are good news, because selfish approach never benefits anyone, but this seems to be the case with Ukrainians and Poles, WHY? Can anyone answer me?
Volodya
PS.For a little more info about me, I am Ukrainian/Russian, and stand for development in the world which should include the country I was brought up too, namely Ukraine.

[TuchajBay]

[quote]Originally posted by volodymyr_gusak
[b] Hi guy's I have just found this forum and got very engaged :-). I am just about to graduate from the United World College of the Atlantic, and here we have 70 nationalities out of 350 students. Most Understanding appears to be between us called "Easten Europeans" at the same time, I have arguments with the Russian guy etc.
From the discussion Ucraine-Poland it becomes clear that Poles in general do not like Ukrainians and vise versa, the same with Russians etc.
Why are these nations so angry with each other? Poland is developing much faster than Ukraine and Lithuania is even better. These are good news, because selfish approach never benefits anyone, but this seems to be the case with Ukrainians and Poles, WHY? Can anyone answer me?
Volodya
PS.For a little more info about me, I am Ukrainian/Russian, and stand for development in the world which should include the country I was brought up too, namely Ukraine.

I answer ,short version ,People of today have not learn anything from History ,maybe some but majority still fed by that all propaganda crap ,Insted of be united and work together somehow they distrust each other ,but this was allways Slavic ways anyway ,no wonder others had so easy task to screw them all from time to time .
It was like that before and not changing a lot today.
Lack of education and espesialy good history lessons ,arogance to fellow nighbour ,nationalism and all kind of modern sins.Some countries like Lithuania ,Czech, SLovakia and to some degree Poland or getting over with that ,but the whole east have not learn yet this basic of human behevior .Nothing in nature last for ever.This very positive global situations might not last for ever ,and if the things go wron again ,most of these countries get screw again and not much is done to prevented it .

[Zbyszek]

I found this old thread because it seems still actual. History should not be used to divide. Many things have changed since the medieval times. Conquers are usually not a good method to subdue nations. Peacuful assimilations work sometimes much better.
I found some bizarre views of Lithuanians claiming that Poles on their ethnic territory are just Lithuanians who have been polonized by force. Such opinions, far from the historic truth, are incompetent because paradoxically those were Lithuanians who started the Polish issue in the Grand Lithuanian Duchy.
Their raids on the neighbouring Mazovian Duchy being dependent on the Polish Crown were often not only aimed at material wealths but at people. They abducted thousands of families in XIIth, XIIIth and XIVth century. According to old chronicles those captives amounted to 10-20 per cent of all Lithuanian population! Why did they do so? They noticed that christened and peacuful peasants can be good settlers, promoting agricultural knowledge in the new infertile land, covered mainly by the endless forest. No wonder that with such impressive numbers Poles were restive against assimilation.
But, all this process turned out to be positive and helpful for the future Union of Lublin where the Rzeczpospolita of Two Nations was declared.
There was another interesting issue connected with Tartars who were taken as POW▓s in numerous wars between the Polish Crown and the Crimean Khanate. Those captives were assimilated peacefully while retaining their Muslim religion and were loyal and useful soldiers of the Polish Crown and Rzeczpospolita. They fought the Teutonic Knights in the famous Grunvald/Tannengerg battle 1410 which was for a long time considered a shameful defeat by the most of German historians (no reason to think that way as German soldiers were courageous and usually did not ask for mercy).
Many assimilated Tartars have lived peacufully in Lithuania and Poland for centuries. Tuchay Bay/Batukhan posting in Ukraine.com is one of their descendants. There are still some nice wooden mosques in my country.
A lot of Polish peasants escaped persecution of the oppressive Lithuanian and Polish lords and found a good shelter in Ukraine. They loved the land and they partly assimilated. That point is often forgotten both by Ukrainians and Poles.
I just want to say that history (High!Story!) includes some good and inspiring stories.

Volodya, I think that the relations between Poles and Ukrainians are improving every month and I feel personally responsible to make them better using this forum.
I question a view that Poles were the worst offenders of Ukraine. I am sure there was no greater disaster for Rus/Ukraine than a Mongol "deluge" lasting for a long time and opening deep wounds that were never healed in fact.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 28th December 2002 at 12:23]

[Halina]

[quote]Originally posted by TuchajBay

[i]
I answer ,short version ,People of today have not learn anything from History ,maybe some but majority still fed by that all propaganda crap ,Insted of be united and work together somehow they distrust each other ,but this was allways Slavic ways anyway ,no wonder others had so easy task to screw them all from time to time .
It was like that before and not changing a lot today.
Lack of education and espesialy good history lessons ,arogance to fellow nighbour ,nationalism and all kind of modern sins.Some countries like Lithuania ,Czech, SLovakia and to some degree Poland or getting over with that ,but the whole east have not learn yet this basic of human behevior .Nothing in nature last for ever.This very positive global situations might not last for ever ,and if the things go wron again ,most of these countries get screw again and not much is done to prevented it .

Hello Tuchajbej!

Nice to hear from you again. I hope you had a good trip overseas and that you are well!
I like to think that the picture is not that black... Because Poland, or Lithuania, or Ukraine have regained their independence fairly recently, these countries tend to be especially vulnerable and sensitive about their identities.
The relationship between Ukrainians and Poles is not easy. I try to understand their grievances and I also stress mine as a Pole.., mostly because certain ideas and historical facts have been passed over from generation to generation and it is hard not to blame the other side..
I dare say both parties have not been angels, but I cannot see in what way we are different from other countries in Western Europe. The French have always felt animosity against the English and presently the English totally despise the German-French axis in Europe...
So, in other words, the WHOLE of Europe (not just the Slavs) has not been exactly very Christian in her history ('Love Thy neighbour..'). But, hopefully, in the course of time the Poles and the Ukrainians will get to respect each other.
I don't see it as impossible at all! I am sure there can still be a fruitful and blessed time for both those countries and for their relationship.

[johnstruthers]

Every party to the discussion has reason to be proud. Cultural sensitivity should not be confused with cultural pride, I think, and each of the countries in question has contributed to our collective history in ways that are noteworthy. The borders moved around by internal volition and conquest, one and the same. Zbyszek, you and I along with Kathy speak to the universal brotherhood of the peoples engaged in these lands. I just think it's the way of the future, and our grandchildren will have something to respect in us if we present them that gift. Right now we need each other more than ever by every measure, and can gain from contributions one to the other that are not accompanied by threats to our borders. We're going into a new year that may be better than the last one, which wasn't bad. I think God looks down, pleased,upon peaceable people who wish the best for their neighbors. Best wishes to all for the New Year.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by johnstruthers
... Right now we need each other more than ever by every measure, and can gain from contributions one to the other that are not accompanied by threats to our borders. We're going into a new year that may be better than the last one, which wasn't bad. I think God looks down, pleased,upon peaceable people who wish the best for their neighbors. Best wishes to all for the New Year.

Dear Ukraine.com participants,
Kind words of Johnstruthers (Vanya) were one of his last clicks before he died un expectedly. Yes, his death was shocking - we lost someone who brought both humour and peace to our discussions. Son of Ukrainian soil, he dared do something very difficult to understand - he returned to his poor motherland from a rich country where he received thorough education. He lived in a decrepit Soviet block apartment in Mykolaiv near Odessa suffering from winter chills caused by inadequate post-Soviet central heating system.
Vanya looked like he had special gift - being unable to hate. Please search through his posts and you will find so optimistic message.
I reopened this thread having Serhii in mind. Kathy, I think you might guess who is the thread opener. As many East Europeans I am fascinated with turbulent history of the region. Union of Poland and Lithuania was an axis of Polish history and in spite of later Lithuanian criticism, I will try to defend the unionist efforts. They were rare in European history which was rather a history of divorces and competition than marriages.
Recent idea of European Union has its drawbacks of course but again, it is great historic effort and surely not an instinctive approach. It required straining mind and showing enough determination to overcome details. [they say Devil is hidden within details]
Serhii, I believe you think that Lithuania's balance of gains and losses was negative while it turned out to be positive for Poland. Could you explain your stand in more detail? I invite more members to participate and I would only be happy if we all minded Vanya's words of peace.

[Serhii]

I have read the thread Zbyszek

Thank you for picking it up. I am in a hurry right now - tomorrow leave for 2 week vacation to the sea . I will give more details when I am back ( please , note my post in another therad). I'd like to listen to another people ( including Lithuanians )as well. I want to drop only one word here - what were RESULTS of that policy of Poland in 16-17 centuries ?
I'll be back soon , my best.