This is your Ukrainian nationalism

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by benda
You see you can't admit you are wrong, Michael. What do you expect from us then? A rather hypocritical thing.

Yes, mostly I meant XVII-XVIII centuries (though there are lots of Polish efforts to conquer Ukraine in 1918-1921).
I had a counter-argument for almost each your point -

You call the things you wrote "counter-arguments"? I recall your main ridiculous 'argument' was that Polish-speaking Ukrainian nobles were in reality Poles (I wonder what do you think about 1920-1939 Ukrainians living in Poland who also spoke Polish)

I know you dislike those arguments but thy are true. Of course as you understand you are wrong it is better for you to ignore the fact of my logical response rather than try to provide more arguments.

Nice description of your own behaviour Benda, if you would only admit that it's about you, not me.



Michael

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL

Nice description of your own behaviour Benda, if you would only admit that it's about you, not me.


Michael [/B]

Michael, I think that we should not expect "full mutual understanding" as a result of our discussion. I am sure the most of Ukrainians had no real chance to explore the truth about UPA. I noticed how Benda was surprised to learn that Poles in Poland were so much afraid of Ukrainians during WWII. He was not inclined to believe me in the beginning. It was a taboo subject for such a long time. It was a taboo in Poland as well but luckily a lot of research was done in Britain and the USA where there was no censorship. It is not easy to counter the "Bitter Truth" as Wiktor Polishchuk put it in his well known book about the UPA. For obvious reasons, Ukrainian emigration in the USA/Canada was not interested in unveiling the UPA's true image.
The catchy call Ukraine for Ukrainians! was wrong of course. The absence of Poles after WWII did not improve quality of Ukrainian life.
At the same time I realize that the Polish state has to take responsibility for wrongs which were done to our Ukrainian brothers. It is not so much a problem of national oppression, it was mainly the arrogance, greed and lack of respect for the Orthodox religion. It must have been bitter for Ukrainians who realized how Poland suffered herself under foreign rules.
But it changed for so much better now. Poles enthusiastically supported peacesul Orange revolution. Probably Poles should have supported Ukrainian independence stronger 87 years ago. Let us say: better do it later than fail to do anyway.


So final conclusion MUST be optimistic.

[MiguelMichael]

UPA were fascists and fascism is a crime.some young Ukrainians who came to Warsaw on some public demonstration for Ukraine in the EU carried UPA or OUN flag a few months ago.
they were probably totally ignorant and blinded by Ukrainian propaganda not really knowing what OUN and UPA was.they had luck OUN logo with tryzub is not recognized by many as swastika is and didn't get mugged.however after someone's intervention they were told to hide the flag by the police.
the reason is that in Poland wearing fascist symbols in public is forbidden.

[dobko]

Mike....

Western Ukrainians declared independence after World War I and competed with Poles for the territory known as
Halychyna and the historic city of Lviv that dominated the area. Outnumbered, Ukrainians lost a 1918-1920 war with the Poles. Western Ukraine remained a part of Poland until 1939 when the Germans and Soviets attacked and dismembered Poland. During the war, Ukrainian and Polish partisans accused each other of carrying out atrocities against each other's communities.

After World War II, Western Ukraine, including Lviv, was incorporated into Soviet Ukraine and there is still bitterness about the expulsion from the area of hundreds of thousands of Poles and the expulsion from Poland of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.

Bitter people tend to stretch the truth in their favor.




Mike. You call us dishonest because we don't agree with you limited point of view?

[benda]

Michael, UPA can't be recognized as a fascist organization.
Zbyszek, I didn't say I actually believed you... well, maybe you are right but only when speaking about fear,not real actions.
Poles supported Ukrainian independence?
By numerous efforts to conquer Ukraine (Kyivian organs of power changed for 21 (I've also heard of 19 and 23, I don't remember)times - and many of these were Polish).
Polish Army had a war with UHA...
Don't say Poles supported Ukrainian independance - they could only support Ukrainian independance FROM RUSSIA.

[MiguelMichael]

Originally posted by dobko
Mike....

Ukrainian and Polish partisans accused each other of carrying out atrocities against each other's communities.

accused.this is a good word.Ukrainian partizans accused Poles of many things made up.this black propaganda kinda ,,repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes truth''which was probably Goebbels' quote is another feature of totalitarian and fascist movements which undoubtedly confirms fascist and totalitarian character of UPA.

[dobko]

Originally posted by MiguelMichael

accused.this is a good word.Ukrainian partizans accused Poles of many things made up.this black propaganda kinda ,,repeat a lie a thousand times and it becomes truth''which was probably Goebbels' quote is another feature of totalitarian and fascist movements which undoubtedly confirms fascist and totalitarian character of UPA.

Do you read what you print? So you're saying Ukrainian partizans are liars and the Polish partizans are angels? As a matter of fact Mike, you seem to think all Ukrainians are liars, right? You need to pull your head out of your sedaka.

I'm glad there are so many Polish people around that I can call my friends. If you were the only one I've ever talked with I wouldn't think much of your country or people.