This is your Ukrainian nationalism

[benda]

Why are you so surprised?
You are not honest when you're talking about Polish oppressions of Ukraine too.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by benda
Why are you so surprised?

Yes, I'm surprised every time this subject comes up.

I really don't understand how can people defend mass-murderers,not just defend but also hold in esteem and then consider themselves normal people.

BTW I recall you have said you aren't a fan of UPA, so the above is said generally.

You are not honest when you're talking about Polish oppressions of Ukraine too.

I suspect you are referring to the pre-20th century opression in the Commonwealth: as I have said before, you (like most people,both Poles and Ukrainians) are simply mistaken about that, because you think about 17th century in 20-21th century terms and see a ethnic conflict while in fact the conflict was't about ethnicity,but social station.

You are visibly resistant to what I write but you aren't providing any counter-arguments (most likely, AFAIK,because there aren't any) you just refuse to admit that what I write is true, as some act of emotional resistance which I must say I do not really understand.

I know you don't like what I'm writing, but that is the truth basing on historical facts- you might not like the historical facts but what's the point of simply refusing to admit them?

*end of section directed to Benda*


Maybe somebody here will explain this to me, because I do not understand: why do Ukrainians defend the UPA's name even though they know it has murdered at least few tens of thousands of Polish civilian population, why do Ukrainians object when the organisation which has commited ethnic hate atrocity of mass-murder is called "fascist"?

Discussing it here, I get a impression like I was talking with people who have their morality sense mutilated, like mass murder of civilians is somehow not a huge crime in your opinion, but just a small inconvinience.

Like for example there is this photo here showing children who were victims of UPA: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Wolyn1943.JPG

Do you people think that I'm a healthy person because when I see this picture, I think of men who did it as fascists and degenerated animals, or do you think you are healthy people because you defend the name of people who did it and their friends?



Michael

[BlueandGold]

What secular ideology or ideologies ATTACKED both Ukraine and Poland?
And for what purpose?

To divide these nations from each other and themselves?



[Edited by BlueandGold on 15th October 2005 at 00:24]

[benda]

You see you can't admit you are wrong, Michael. What do you expect from us then? A rather hypocritical thing.

Yes, mostly I meant XVII-XVIII centuries (though there are lots of Polish efforts to conquer Ukraine in 1918-1921).
I had a counter-argument for almost each your point - I know you dislike those arguments but thy are true. Of course as you understand you are wrong it is better for you to ignore the fact of my logical response rather than try to provide more arguments. Let it be your sin.



I read what I had written and felt sick because it is so rude and contemptous... But that is your manner.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by benda
You see you can't admit you are wrong, Michael. What do you expect from us then? A rather hypocritical thing.

Yes, mostly I meant XVII-XVIII centuries (though there are lots of Polish efforts to conquer Ukraine in 1918-1921).
I had a counter-argument for almost each your point -

You call the things you wrote "counter-arguments"? I recall your main ridiculous 'argument' was that Polish-speaking Ukrainian nobles were in reality Poles (I wonder what do you think about 1920-1939 Ukrainians living in Poland who also spoke Polish)

I know you dislike those arguments but thy are true. Of course as you understand you are wrong it is better for you to ignore the fact of my logical response rather than try to provide more arguments.

Nice description of your own behaviour Benda, if you would only admit that it's about you, not me.



Michael

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL

Nice description of your own behaviour Benda, if you would only admit that it's about you, not me.


Michael [/b]

Michael, I think that we should not expect "full mutual understanding" as a result of our discussion. I am sure the most of Ukrainians had no real chance to explore the truth about UPA. I noticed how Benda was surprised to learn that Poles in Poland were so much afraid of Ukrainians during WWII. He was not inclined to believe me in the beginning. It was a taboo subject for such a long time. It was a taboo in Poland as well but luckily a lot of research was done in Britain and the USA where there was no censorship. It is not easy to counter the "Bitter Truth" as Wiktor Polishchuk put it in his well known book about the UPA. For obvious reasons, Ukrainian emigration in the USA/Canada was not interested in unveiling the UPA's true image.
The catchy call Ukraine for Ukrainians! was wrong of course. The absence of Poles after WWII did not improve quality of Ukrainian life.
At the same time I realize that the Polish state has to take responsibility for wrongs which were done to our Ukrainian brothers. It is not so much a problem of national oppression, it was mainly the arrogance, greed and lack of respect for the Orthodox religion. It must have been bitter for Ukrainians who realized how Poland suffered herself under foreign rules.
But it changed for so much better now. Poles enthusiastically supported peacesul Orange revolution. Probably Poles should have supported Ukrainian independence stronger 87 years ago. Let us say: better do it later than fail to do anyway.


So final conclusion MUST be optimistic.

[MiguelMichael]

UPA were fascists and fascism is a crime.some young Ukrainians who came to Warsaw on some public demonstration for Ukraine in the EU carried UPA or OUN flag a few months ago.
they were probably totally ignorant and blinded by Ukrainian propaganda not really knowing what OUN and UPA was.they had luck OUN logo with tryzub is not recognized by many as swastika is and didn't get mugged.however after someone's intervention they were told to hide the flag by the police.
the reason is that in Poland wearing fascist symbols in public is forbidden.