This is your Ukrainian nationalism

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by BlueandGold
Sorry Michael,

Your problem is to try and paint the UPA as fascists,

There is no "try", it's a fact - UPA mass-murdered thousands of Polish civilians basing on ethnic criteria, acting out of fascist ethnic hate.

Please read independent historical sources.

Do you want to tell me that you deny the fact that UPA mass-murdered thousands of Polish civilians basing on ethnic criteria?


Sorry BlueAndGold, but you are a fantasy-oriented person: you prefer the mythological vision of UPA instead of the historical one.



Michael

[dobko]

Really Mike? Let's start a thread just for you on the UPA, OK?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by dobko
Really Mike? Let's start a thread just for you on the UPA, OK?

Dobko, Petro_Moskal started this thread with a post about UPA's crimes, I do not see why you want to start another one.


BTW, could somebody explain to me why there is so little honesty in Ukrainians in this forum?
Like even when confronted with historical events like mass-murder of civilians, women and children among them, you people seem to have trouble admitting that people who commit mass-murder of civilians are villains, not heroes and you react negatively when somebody is saying this simple truth.
Let me repeat something else: people who mass murder civilians basing on ethnic criteria are hardly not fascists, what UPA did was a classical ethnic cleansing hate-atrocity.

Are you people aware that [in this thread] you are defenders of facists and mass-murderers? Or do you somehow push it out of your moral view?



Michael

[benda]

Why are you so surprised?
You are not honest when you're talking about Polish oppressions of Ukraine too.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by benda
Why are you so surprised?

Yes, I'm surprised every time this subject comes up.

I really don't understand how can people defend mass-murderers,not just defend but also hold in esteem and then consider themselves normal people.

BTW I recall you have said you aren't a fan of UPA, so the above is said generally.

You are not honest when you're talking about Polish oppressions of Ukraine too.

I suspect you are referring to the pre-20th century opression in the Commonwealth: as I have said before, you (like most people,both Poles and Ukrainians) are simply mistaken about that, because you think about 17th century in 20-21th century terms and see a ethnic conflict while in fact the conflict was't about ethnicity,but social station.

You are visibly resistant to what I write but you aren't providing any counter-arguments (most likely, AFAIK,because there aren't any) you just refuse to admit that what I write is true, as some act of emotional resistance which I must say I do not really understand.

I know you don't like what I'm writing, but that is the truth basing on historical facts- you might not like the historical facts but what's the point of simply refusing to admit them?

*end of section directed to Benda*


Maybe somebody here will explain this to me, because I do not understand: why do Ukrainians defend the UPA's name even though they know it has murdered at least few tens of thousands of Polish civilian population, why do Ukrainians object when the organisation which has commited ethnic hate atrocity of mass-murder is called "fascist"?

Discussing it here, I get a impression like I was talking with people who have their morality sense mutilated, like mass murder of civilians is somehow not a huge crime in your opinion, but just a small inconvinience.

Like for example there is this photo here showing children who were victims of UPA: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../Wolyn1943.JPG

Do you people think that I'm a healthy person because when I see this picture, I think of men who did it as fascists and degenerated animals, or do you think you are healthy people because you defend the name of people who did it and their friends?



Michael

[BlueandGold]

What secular ideology or ideologies ATTACKED both Ukraine and Poland?
And for what purpose?

To divide these nations from each other and themselves?



[Edited by BlueandGold on 15th October 2005 at 00:24]

[benda]

You see you can't admit you are wrong, Michael. What do you expect from us then? A rather hypocritical thing.

Yes, mostly I meant XVII-XVIII centuries (though there are lots of Polish efforts to conquer Ukraine in 1918-1921).
I had a counter-argument for almost each your point - I know you dislike those arguments but thy are true. Of course as you understand you are wrong it is better for you to ignore the fact of my logical response rather than try to provide more arguments. Let it be your sin.



I read what I had written and felt sick because it is so rude and contemptous... But that is your manner.