This is your Ukrainian nationalism

[Petro_moskal]

Kathy

Zinoviev was Jewish.

I'd already said that earlier. I was talking about Kalinin and Bukharin.

[Redcoat]

Just thought I'd say that the Bolsheviks weren't nationalists, rather anti-nationalists. They condemned religion (a fundamental part of culture), demonized all previous Czars (virtually all previous recorded Russian history was under their rule, thus a crucial role in all possible nationalism.). The Bolsheviks renamed the country to the Soviet Union, thus it was not even Russia anymore, only the power was placed in what was once Russia.

Nazism as well was only a facade in many of it's official 'philosophies'. In reality, they did not hate communism or socialism. They wanted to create a European Confederacy under a strict socialist-fascist dictatorship. All would be equal, but the means in which all would be equal would be by all being completely subordinate to the ruling party. It was through skillful manipulation and propaganda that the Nazis managed to deceive unknowing Germans into believing that they were strongly nationalist. Hitler didn't use the term 'German people' near as many times as the 'aryan race', as it was his firm belief that the enlightened aryan race, decendents from the perfect republic of Atlantis would rule not only Europe, but the world, creating what he called the 'New World Order'.

Anyway, Bolshevism and Nazism shouldn't be misinterpreted as nationalist ideals, rather than criminal acts. Believe it or not, but the West is following a very similar example. Look at the US, with their Patriot Acts (which dwarfs the power of Hitler and Stalin, in comparison with the US president.), the new EU constitution (good that it was denied in France and the Netherlands.), where a whole new step towards a European state would have been taken.

[Serhii]

The Bolsheviks renamed the country to the Soviet Union, thus it was not even Russia anymore, only the power was placed in what was once Russia.

They did rename the country , but all previous policy remained the same ( here I say ONLY about their police towards other nations ) It was the same ▒prison of nations ▒ as Lenin described tsarists Russia. We use here only one term ▒nationalism ▒. In old soviet tradition there was a strong division between ▒nationalism ▒ and ▒chauvinism. ▒The last one was described as ideology of a main ( dominate) nation. All soviet rulers strongly supported it. Of course they twisted history , etc. etc . , but chauvinistic policy was not only the same , but much tougher as you know┘

[Redcoat]

Agreed.
But nevertheless, I deffinitely consider the link between Bolshevism and Nationalism either very fine or nonexistant. However, people with a different way of looking at things may argue against this.

[Serhii]

Let's say you have partly agreed and I partly agree with you as well

[Arda]

I dont see any bad consequence with the Ukrainian nationalist tendencies...One must bear in mind the fact that The Ukrainians had been targeted to be de-nationalized by several nations for centuries.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by dobko

So should Russian nationalism! And Polish nationalism, American nationalism, Canadian nationalism.... hell let's ban all nationalism!

I think that the problem is that OUN/UPA ideology is often incorrectly described as "Ukrainian nationalism", while in reality the proper term is "Ukrainian fascism".

To put it simply, people who mass murder civilians because of their ethnicity are hardly only mere 'nationalists'.



Michael