Ukraina: the choice between Poland and Russia

[Kagarc]

Good evening,

I am a student of Eastern European history and politics. Recently I became interested in the subject of Ukraine and would be grateful for observations / remarks / opinions concerning the following statement:

⌠For more than a decade now, Ukrainian ⌠nationalists■ confined their country▓s future to an ⌠either / or■ format. Either Ukraine dissociates itself completely from Russia and ⌠realizes its full democratic potential■ by becoming a part of the European community or it falls prey to ⌠Russia▓s imperial ambitions■ and ceases to exist as a sovereign nation.■

In your opinion, does this statement convey the general mentality of those who promote Ukraine▓s distancing from Russia?

It seems to me that the choice between the East or the West to the exclusion of the other is unavailable to Ukraine given the country▓s historical and ethnic roots, language, and religion. In other words, the essence of what may be ⌠Ukrainian national identity■ is intrinsically linked to both Russian and Polish linguistic and cultural influences. Would you agree?

Finally, on the subject of Ukraine▓s national identity. The rifts and divisions within Ukraine (as seen in the presidential elections) seem indicative of the divided nature of the Ukrainian national identity which may be best understood as either a spectrum or a biform entity. Polish influences left their mark in Lviv and surrounding regions. Russian influences are most felt in the Eastern part of Ukraine.

I guess my final question would be: do you agree with the above statement? After the Lublin Union, was it Poland or Russia who had a greater influence on Ukraine? Or was the influence of both countries equally important and lasting? As someone who is just starting to study Ukrainian history and current political climate, I am not sure of my grasp of the whole picture. As I said above, any comments or criticisms would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you and I apologize for the long message.

[BlueandGold]

Kagarc,

Hello!

No need to apologize in your post to learn about Ukrainian history.
There is much to learn.....

You ask good questions.

I'll do my best to help your Ukrainian studies as a history
graduate from Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, Canada.
Also, Z-man has a good Polish perspective on this matter.
Len and others, if they read your post, I'm sure will help you too.

Nonetheless, I'm busy at the moment.

But for now, please understand there is
no Western or Eastern Ukraine.
This is old communist propaganda attempting to divide Ukraine.
Ukraine is truly one nation.

Sure, there are pockets of Ukrainian nationalism and
Russian imperialism, as well as pockets of socialism
and communism all over Ukraine, even pockets of
Cossack free-enterprise. As you are aware,
geographical proximity plays an important role
between cities and nations.
Different cities outside of Ukraine have historic trade
patterns with many cities within Ukraine.
But ... (I'll reply more later)

[dobko]

Originally posted by BlueandGold
Kagarc,

Hello!

No need to apologize in your post to learn about Ukrainian history.
There is much to learn.....

You ask good questions.

I'll do my best to help your Ukrainian studies as a history
graduate from Simon Fraser University, British Columbia, Canada.
Also, Z-man has a good Polish perspective on this matter.
Len and others, if they read your post, I'm sure will help you too.

Nonetheless, I'm busy at the moment.

But for now, please understand there is
no Western or Eastern Ukraine.
This is old communist propaganda attempting to divide Ukraine.
Ukraine is truly one nation.

Sure, there are pockets of Ukrainian nationalism and
Russian imperialism, as well as pockets of socialism
and communism all over Ukraine, even pockets of
Cossack free-enterprise. As you are aware,
geographical proximity plays an important role
between cities and nations.
Different cities outside of Ukraine have historic trade
patterns with many cities within Ukraine.
But ... (I'll reply more later)

DOBRA Answer!

[BlueandGold]

dobko and Kagark,

Kagark, by the way, you sound like a statesman.

Reflection was needed.

To continue...

But for now, please understand there is
no Western or Eastern Ukraine.
This is old communist propaganda attempting to divide Ukraine.
Ukraine is truly one nation.

Sure, there are pockets of Ukrainian nationalism and
Russian imperialism, as well as pockets of socialism
and communism all over Ukraine, even pockets of
Cossack free-enterprise. As you are aware,
geographical proximity plays an important role
between cities and nations.
Different cities outside of Ukraine have historic trade
patterns with many cities within Ukraine.
But nations don't distance themselves from other nations.
This is a geographical impossibility.

Only citizens may distance themselves from other citizens
or trade with each other.

Nations adjacent to other nations, particularly with other cities,
share more common interests. Be it trade, language or culture.
But not a common national identity.

Poland is Poland.

Russia is Russia.

Ukraine is Ukraine.

Each nation has its own historical heritage
while each city has its own trade routes.

[Kagarc]

Thank you for your reply, BlueandGold.

God forbid, I am not a statesman. I read a few books on the history and identity formation of Ukraine (including Subtelny, Motyl - "Dilemmas of Independence", and Snyder - "Reconstruction of Nations"), but have not yet formulated a well-defined stance on any of the issues. I was a political science major at my undergraduate institution and maybe that comes through in the style of my post.

I agree with many of your points. On the subject of national identity, though, it sounds like you are saying that two adjacent nations cannot have a shared national identity. Wouldn't you say, however, that the mutual influence of Russians and right-bank Ukrainians (in the 19th century) led to cultural similarities?

One trend that seems to be prevalent in the writings of Western scholars on Ukraine is a grouping of all Ukrainians under one stereotype (ex: Alexander Motyl stated that Ukrainians have an inferiority complex vis-a-vis Russians, while Russians have a superiority complex vis-a-vis Ukrainians). Shouldn't we account for, at least, three divisions among the Ukrainians: ethnic Ukrainians who use Ukrainian language as their primary means of communication; ethnic Ukrainians who mainly speak Russian; and ethnic Russians in Ukraine?

I will write more on the subject later but, for now, I was wondering whether you might recommend any authors or books (in Russian or English) that deal with the issue.

Thank you.

[Aussiecossack]

BlueandGold.
I like your last reply, it was very well put.
May I use it at my next discussion, where-ever they may be?

[Hannia]

As of 7/03, out of 48 million population, the demographic breakdown for Ukraine is as follows: Ukrainian - 77.8%, Russian - 17.3%, Romanian - 8% (divided between Moldovan and Romanian), Belarusyn - .6%, Tatar - .5%, Bulgarian - .4%, Hungarian - .3%, Polish - .3%, & Jews - .2%.
_________________________________________________________________________





Revolution in Ukraine
By Julius Strauss in Kiev
(Filed: 25/11/2004)

Ukraine's pro-western opposition leader called last night on army and police units to join his revolution as thousands of supporters braved subzero temperatures and driving snow to confront riot police outside the presidential palace.

In scenes reminiscent of the fall of the Iron Curtain in 1989, more than 200,000 antigovernment demonstrators cheered on Viktor Yushchenko and called for his pro-Kremlin rival to accept electoral defeat. Many later broke away from the main protest in a sea of orange opposition flags to surround the presidential building in Kiev, the capital, where they were met by the police line.

The demonstrators chanted "Police, join the people!" but the security forces attempted to push back the crowds as they surged against the cordon around the building. Opposition deputies said they would not encourage the demonstrators to storm it.

Earlier, in a symbol of their defiance, the deputies held a swearing-in ceremony in the parliament at which Mr. Yushchenko took the oath of office.

His allies in the chamber sang the national anthem and he opened a window and addressed the crowd outside.

Riot police were deployed to protect the presidential building.



The crisis in Ukraine erupted after Viktor Yanukovich, who favours closer ties with Russia, declared victory in a presidential run-off held at the weekend. The poll was widely condemned as rigged by western observers.

The dispute widened last night as Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, congratulated the pro-Moscow candidate and called for law and order to be upheld.

But pro-government miners threatened to descend on Kiev and two buses of volunteers were said to have arrived in the capital. In the Russian DUMA, ultra-nationalists urged military intervention.

The outgoing president, Leonid Kuchma, who may face corruption charges if the pro-western camp gains power, had warned that he would not hesitate to use force against the demonstrators if disorder was threatened. But last night he held talks with Mr. Yushchenko aimed at avoiding bloody clashes.

According to official results, Mr. Yanukovich, a Russian-speaking industrialist, leads Mr. Yushchenko, a banker, by 49.4 to 46.7 per cent with more than 99 per cent of the votes counted.

The unrest has brought the country, Europe's largest by area, to the brink of civil conflict. It has also led to a Cold War-style crisis in relations between the West and Russia, which wants to bring Ukraine under its influence. Mr. Putin angrily rejected western criticism of the Ukrainian poll, saying the country was a functioning democracy and should not be lectured by the West.

If the election results are overturned it will prove intensely embarrassing for the Kremlin leader who has made two visits to back the government's campaign.

In exchange for Moscow's support, Mr. Yanukovich, a former convict, has promised to make Russian the second official language and to offer Ukrainians Russian citizenship. But tens of millions, fed up after more than a decade of corrupt and authoritarian leadership, want to turn their back on Moscow and chart a course towards west.

Since the first results were announced on Monday morning thousands have made their way to the capital to join protesters in the city's main Independence Square. Many have sworn to stay until their demands are met.

Amid the sea of orange banners, some called for the peaceful overthrow of the government, citing the example of the Georgian revolution which ousted the longtime Communist leader Eduard Shevardnadze a year ago today, and the overthrow of the Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosevic in 2000.

"Ukraine is on the threshold of a civil conflict," Mr. Yushchenko told deputies. "We have two choices: either the answer will be given by the parliament, or the streets will give an answer."

23 November 2004: 100,000 challenge 'flawed' poll in Ukraine
22 November 2004: Vote leaves Ukraine on the brink
27 October 2004: Ukrainian campaign tainted by violence

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