THE TRIDENT IS IN FACT AN ANCIENT RUSSIAN SYMBOL

[mishaaverko]

This link verifies my previously stated view that was challenged by a number of regular forum participants who make it a habit out of going out of their way to belittle anything having to do with Russia and Russians:

http://www.allstates-flag.com/fotw/flags/ua-arms.html

Previous to this forum, I referenced a New York Times letter to the editor by a descendant of Vladimir, the Riurik ruler who became a saint in the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church.

UKRAINE IS RUSSIA

http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@5....3@.597ac198/2

[mishaaverko]

Kievan Rus is in fact ancient Russia, with a good many historians agreeing. Did a Poland exist from the 9th to mid 13th centuries?

The ruling Riuriks moved the capital north of Kiev as that area of Russia saw greater development. They did this at a time when the Trident was still the national emblem and when much of present day Ukraine was still under their rule.

Kaliningrad is Russian. Lithuania is free from Poland. So equating the two as one is absurd. Especially since many Lithuanians see Poland as a historic rival. If Kaliningrad isn't Russian, than Poland's western border isn't Polish.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by mishaaverko
1. Kievan Rus is in fact ancient Russia, with a good many historians agreeing.
2.Did a Poland exist from the 9th to mid 13th centuries?

3. The ruling Riuriks moved the capital north of Kiev as that area of Russia saw greater development. 4. They did this at a time when the Trident was still the national emblem and when much of present day Ukraine was still under their rule.

5. Kaliningrad is Russian. 6. Lithuania is free from Poland. 7. So equating the two as one is absurd. 8. Especially since many Lithuanians see Poland as a historic rival. 9. If Kaliningrad isn't Russian, than Poland's western border isn't Polish.

Misha, why are you so stubborn? I would agree with you if it was a Christmas day, just to please you as my fellow Christian but it is a usual Tuesday today lol...

1. Kievan Rus was Kievan Rus and centrally governed Russia did not adopt her federal traditions and system of power so no equality sign should be placed between the two.

2. Poland was baptized in 966 and it was not a beginning of the Polish state.

3. Muscovy princes set up a separate capital in Moscow displaying no will to connect it to Kiev.

4. See the links you gave yourself earlier in this thread. Pay attention to Archangel Michael.

5. No doubt.

6. Lithuania and Poland are almost in the EU together.

7. Give me the one who says that and I will show him contemporary map of Europe.

8. Some of them have a bit short memeory. Rzeczpospolita was a FREE union of two countries while Muscovy/Russia's protection of Ukraine was a forced issue, marked by striking repressions and power abuse.

9. Agreed. You should however bear in mind that German Drang nach Osten policy caused gradual Western Slavic borders shift to the East. Russia's presence on the Baltic Sea can be accepted but it is detached from any historic explanation.

[mishaaverko]

There's no legitmate denying of the fact that the ruling Riuriks had moved the capital north as that area advanced due in part to it being closer to the developed Scandanavia and Baltics (refer to the Hanseatic League).

There was no "Ukraine" in name or concept.

Belarus fell under Lithuanian and later Polish-Lithuanian occupation. Prior to that, it was part of Kievan Rus.

The part of Poland that became part of the Russian Empire didn't suddenly lose its connection to the Poland prior the annexations of it by Prussia, Austria and Russia. Likewise, Belarus didn't lose it attachment to Kievan Rus because foreignors came to dominate it.

Yes, the western portion of Ukraine has developed differently due to its very lengthy period of Polish, Austrian and Austro-Hungarian occupations. The hybrid Uniate denomination of western Ukraine didn't even exist at the time of Kievan Rus, thereby making anti-Russian nationalists from that area liars for claiming to be the greater inheritor of that historical period when no differences existed between the peoples now known as Russians, Ukrainians and Belarussians.

As for Kalinigrad going back to Poland and-or Lithuania - Trans-Dniester, the eastern half of Ukraine, Crimea and the northern half of Kazakhstan have a greater right to reunify with Russia proper. Belarus is a near done deal.

[Ogmioski]

re: "THE TRIDENT IS IN FACT AN ANCIENT RUSSIAN SYMBOL"

It is also an American symbol of the Red Indians.
Even today 'frog gigging' (frog hunting) with a trident sure is popular in rural Arkansas.

[Hussar_]

misha today its more like the lithuanians misstreating the polish minorety there....there lives 0.5 million poles in lithuania and only 50.000 lithuanians in poland...

http://www.ampolinstitute.org/miller..._lithuania.htm

Following independence, old issues arose once again. Lithuanian nationalists sought to restrict the Polish minority and Lithuanize them. Lithuanian nationalists under Vytautas Landsbergis were particularly strident in their demands to repress the Polish minority and to extract an apology for the Polish seizure of Vilnius in 1920. The extremist Iron Wolf society even launched physical attacks on Poles in a few instances. The Polish minority, for its part, demanded autonomy and transferred its allegiance to Warsaw.

and about Belarus theres 1 million Poles left there it will never go back to russia after lukadupa is gone they will join EU...

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/litpole.htm
http://www.minelres.lv/minelres/arch...:39-29183.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/LABAS/20...ch/polish.html
Belarus
http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/belpole.htm
http://www.pgsa.org/belarus.htm

Ukraine
http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-41079.html
http://www.infoukes.com/rfe-ukraine/2001/0509.html

[Edited by Hussar_ on 30th September 2003 at 05:27]

[ricardo]

Originally posted by Hussar_
misha today its more like the lithuanians misstreating the polish minorety there....there lives 0.5 million poles in lithuania and only 50.000 lithuanians in poland...

http://www.ampolinstitute.org/miller..._lithuania.htm

Following independence, old issues arose once again. Lithuanian nationalists sought to restrict the Polish minority and Lithuanize them. Lithuanian nationalists under Vytautas Landsbergis were particularly strident in their demands to repress the Polish minority and to extract an apology for the Polish seizure of Vilnius in 1920. The extremist Iron Wolf society even launched physical attacks on Poles in a few instances. The Polish minority, for its part, demanded autonomy and transferred its allegiance to Warsaw.

and about Belarus theres 1 million Poles left there it will never go back to russia after lukadupa is gone they will join EU...

http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/litpole.htm
http://www.minelres.lv/minelres/arch...:39-29183.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/LABAS/20...ch/polish.html
Belarus
http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/mar/data/belpole.htm
http://www.pgsa.org/belarus.htm

Ukraine
http://www.unian.net/eng/news/news-41079.html
http://www.infoukes.com/rfe-ukraine/2001/0509.html

[Edited by Hussar_ on 30th September 2003 at 05:27]

One fact is that the soviets managed to isolate the status of these new nations for sometime now their newly found freedom and globalization may even work against them.
Wait until they join the EU then immigration from within and outside the EU will iron those hisotircal differences out once African, Indian and Middle Eastern nationalities move in they will become entrenched in the society much like in Germany,France,Italy the UK or Spain.