Katyn...Solzhenitsyn...and evil doer Stalin...

[Yakoo]

Why I have no respect for Solzhenitsyn?? Becasue he is a big fat lier...Many people win the Nobel Prize...Bush was just nomintaed for one...goes to show you how much it means.

Rearding Poland...USSR did not occupy any part of Poland. What it did was LIBERATE the land which Poland had invaded in 1920. Or does Poland think that Vilinus Lithuania is Polish territory (they occupied it until 1939)?? In 1920 Poland invaded parts of Lithuania, Belorussia and Ukraine. Some 25 million non-Poles were put under Polish occupation. Many Poles moved into these newly occupied territory...in order to enforce Polish feudal rule over the non-Poles.

Yes Poles were deported from these lands...becasue they had done bad things there and did not belong there. Most of the Polish community was the landlords and gentry that were ruling the non-Poles in a manner similar to serfdom.

They were not deported simply becasue they were Poles...but rather part of the ruling class that had invaded this land and was exploiting the people. The orders...BTW...were not to deport all Poles...just the members of the ruling class...and these didn't have to be only Poles.

The crimes committed by the Polish ruling class in these territories far surpases the deportation. After all...deportation by Stalin meant getting repaied for everything you lost and a 5000 ruble loan and free materials to rebuld your home...and free food and services until that time...Not exactly the Hilton...but it is not what you think it is...deportations were not necessarely punishment...they were done becaue of the need to in face of war.


Regarding Katyn...I found it interesting that Someone mentioned the "International research group"...that supposedly confrimed it was a Soviet crime. This "International" group visited Katyn in 1942-43...and under German supervision examined a few duzen bodies...after the Germans had cleaned them of all their documents and such (which BTW the researchers were not allowed to view). The conclusion of this group...which was actually made up of experts from German's occupied countries...was officially that the Soviets had done it.

After the war however...the researchers were tracked down...adn they confesed that they only said that becasue thats what the Germans told them to say. According to them...they had privately reached the conclusion that the murders had NOT been done by the Soviets...but by the Germans. The Germans accused the Soviets oh having killed the Poles on May 1941. From that time unitl when the researchers examined the bodies...3 summers had passed. The bodies however were in good condition...so they had been burried a LOT sooner...perhaps only 1 summer before their visit. Not to mention they had winter coats on...why wear coats in May 1941??

The conclusion these experts had reached was that the bodies had been in the ground for less than a year...inside the timeframe of the German occupation.


Not to mention the 3 eyewtinesses...3 women who worked as cooks for the Germans at Katyn...and who said how the Germans carried out the exectutions.

Regarding the History Channel...and you all should take note of this...it should be called the Un-Historic Channel. One of the best examples of the twisting of history that they did...was on Katyn!! In their piece on Katyn...the History Channel takes the accounts of these 3 women in Katyn...who speak of the Germans doing the killings...and turn them around to the point where they say it was the Russians who did the killing and it was the NKVD which did it!!!!! If that isn't disshonesty at its highest level!!...I don't know what is!!! The accoutn of these women clearly says germans...and names the Germans responsible. How can a "History" Channel...make such a lie?? Not to mention how they twisted the coat business around. They said the Russians had claimed the kilings were done in the summer...while the Germans accused them of doing it in the winter. So it comes out...that since they were wearing coats...that the Russians were lying. In reality...it was the other way around...with the Germans accusing them of May 1941..and the Russians accusing them of the winter of 1941-42...which is the correct date.

THIS...is the source of your information. You Poles should read that book "Katyn Detective" by Yuri Mukhin.

[rusdrm]

Oh God. Liberate? Yes, I'm sure the people in Eastern Poland were very happy to turn to Soviets, after all, look at all the good it did to Ukraine.

Yakoo, you are nuts. I'm serious. Check your self in somewhere, doesn't matter where, even a chess club. It'll do you good.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Yakoo

....
Yes Poles were deported from these lands...becasue they had done bad things there and did not belong there. Most of the Polish community was the landlords and gentry that were ruling the non-Poles in a manner similar to serfdom.
...
The crimes committed by the Polish ruling class in these territories far surpases the deportation. After all...deportation by Stalin meant getting repaied for everything you lost and a 5000 ruble loan and free materials to rebuld your home...and free food and services until that time...Not exactly the Hilton...but it is not what you think it is...deportations were not necessarely punishment...they were done becaue of the need to in face of war.
...
Regarding Katyn...I found it interesting that Someone mentioned the "International research group"...that supposedly confrimed it was a Soviet crime. This "International" group visited Katyn in 1942-43...and under German supervision examined a few duzen bodies...after the Germans had cleaned them of all their documents and such (which BTW the researchers were not allowed to view).
....

Stalin vs Solzhenitsyn ? Now thanks to Yakoo, we know that Kain was right and Abel was lying. Thank you Yakoo for your revolutionary zeal and for your deep insight into historic justice.

Yakoo, the facts you twisted can be found in any modern encyclopaedia but it means nothing to you. You have contempt for Solzhenitsyn but you praise Stalin for his grace. Stop reading your old history texbooks cooked by the Soviet regime and look around.
Were thousands Polish doctors, teachers, lawyers, clerks, craftsmen really representatives of the ruling class in pre-war Eastern Poland? Did they realy have oppression of Ukrainians or Lithuanians in mind? No, their ancestors lived there for centuries and the graves of their dear ones stayed in that land for centuries but you will not find it in your history books, Yakoo.
So how many years does it take "to belong there"? Russia partitioned Poland in 1772-1995. It changed in 1918. Are 123 years enough "to belong"?
I have to say that neither Russia nor Poland had rights to rule these lands in the XIXth/XXth century. The present situation is the best possible solution. Poland' efforts to endorse independent Ukrainian or Lithuanian governments were limited but true. Russian ones were gracious but false. It is sad that even now, some influential political spheres in Russia can not fully accept newly independent states.
First Poles settled in Ukraine in the XIVth/XVth century and they did not come as invaders but usual citizens belonging to all social classes. Yes Yakoo, to ALL social classes which is the fact you absolutely ignore.
Now, you claim that Russian rule starting with MILITARY invasion lasting 123 years makes it all legitimate. How can it be?
Now, you justified all the sufferings of USUAL people stating that they DID NOT BELONG THERE. It is not fair.

Katyn? So much said about but Yakoo, like Dodo, states that the Earth is flat.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 14th May 2003 at 00:20]

[Yakoo]

...are these?? Regarding Katyn...there are 2 sets of documents. The first set of documents made public by the Military-Historical Magazine in 1993...and detail the decision of the Special Commission of the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs (NKVD)regarding the Polish officers and gentry which were being held in POW camps. The decision was as follows: (sorry for rough translation)

1. To give the status of war criminal to the persons considered socially dangerous; to exile for the period of up to 5 years under public supervision in the districts specified by the NKVD; to sentence them for the period of 5 years under public supervision with the prohibition of residing in the capitals, large cities and industrial centers of the USSR; to imprison in correctional-working camps and isolate in the camps for a period of up to 5 years, and to send outside the limits of the USSR foreign citizens considered socially dangerous.
2. To give the status of war criminal to the persons convicted of espionage, sabotage, diversion and terrorist activity and to imprison for the period from 5 to 8 years.
3. For the realization of the actions specified in items 1 and 2, the People's Commissariat of Internal Affairs acts under the chairmanship of the Special Commission comprised of: a) the Assistant to the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs; b) the representative of the NKVD to the RSFSR; c) the Chief of Central Administrative Board of Worker's and Peasant's Militia; d) the People's Commissar of the Union Republic on whose territory the action is carried out.
4. The public prosecutor or his assistant who in case of disagreement with both the decision or the direction of the Special Commission of the NKVD, has the right to protest to the Presidium of the Central Executive Committee of the USSR. In this case, the decision of the Special Commission of the NKVD is suspended pending a decision from the Central Committee of the USSR.
5. The decision of the Special Committee of the NKVD about the reference and imprisonment into correctional-working camps of each person should be accompanied by the instruction of the reason of the application of these measures, area of imprisonment and term of imprisonment.


There are also a series of documents and requetsts by Beria and the Smolensk UNKVD regarding prisoner's documentation...such as the destruction of their POW documentation and the writing of new War Criminel documents and so forth.


Than there is another set of documents...those released by Yeltsin. These consit of the famous request of Beria to the Politburo for the execution of the Polish officers, a document of the logs of the Politburo agreeing to this request, and than a letter send by the KGB chief to Khruschiev in 1955 saying that all documents on Katyn were destroyed.

These smell of forgeries...for several reasons. First, if the 1955 letter to Khruschiev is correct...than why do the first set of documents exist?? Second, Beria's leter could very easily have been forged. In the letter Beria requests the "carrying out of the maximum punishment-execution". The word execution could easily have been added...replacing what Beria may have really requested...since the maximum punishment acording to the first set of documents was 5-8 years of imprisonment. Also the fact that 2 members of the Politburo on that day were absent...namely Kaganovich and Kalinin. However, their names appear on the Beria document, added underneath the names of the present members. So the names may have been added later on.

And most importantly...none of the necessary procedures for a "Top Secret" letter of this type exist. There is no nmae of who wrote the letter, the names of all the people who have seen the docuemnt, the names of the people to whom it is to be send, the number of copies made, the carbon paper used to make the copies and finally the typewriter tape used to write the paper. All these were required for a "Top Secert" document...yet none exist.

The existance of 2 sets of documents...one sentancing the prisoners to 5-8 years of imprisonment in 3 camps outside Smolenks...and another sentancing them to death...means one of them HAS to be fake!

The circumstential evidence points to the fact that the first set of documents is the authentic one. First, the Polish soldiers and civilians, after Eastern Poland become part of the USSR, were given Soviet citizenship and freed from POW camps. Second, some of the Polish officers who were of foreing nationality were deported...as the NKVD order says. Second of all...some Polish officers were found not-guilty of wrong doing and freed. If the NKVD was going to execute them...it would not have bothered spending months investigating every case to determine guilt or not.

The overwhelming physical evidence at Katyn clearly points to the Germans having done the killings. The investigation of the Polish Red Cross (which was part of that International group that visited Katyn)...showed that the bodies had been in the ground for less than a year at that time...meaning well within the timeframe of the German occupation. The winter coats also point to that. The bullet cases found at Katyn were all of German manufacture...and some of 9mm which the USSR did not posses any 9mm guns. Than there are the eyewitness accounts of the 3 womens...who even gave the names of the German officers in that compound that carried out the killings (these German officers were later put on trial during the Nuremberg processions...but were found not guilty becaue of a technicality.) Also accounts by many other locals who had seen Poles after the Red Army left...and also accounts from one of the camp directors who had survived the war and gave an account of how the Germans captured the prisoners alive in the camp.

[Yakoo]

Lets not go into history centuries ago...or else we are going to end up with another Israel-Palestine debate...and hitting our heads against a wall.

Demography is what matters. There were 25 million NON-POLES in those lands which Poland INVADED in 1920. How many Poles were there??? A few million...and most of those came after 1920.

There may have been Poles in many of these areas...but that does not make them Polish lands. There were also Germans in parts of Russia...but they are a tiny minority.

What Poland did was an invasion...That cannot be justified by history from the 14th century!! Nothing can be justified with 500 year old history!

Why don't we all just start invading all the territory which belonged to us 500 years ago (uhhh...I wonder what is going on in the Balkans today!!)

USSR was a multi-ethinc state...and respected all those nationalities as equals. Poles in USSR were not treated different from other people's of the USSR. The same cannot be said of Poland. Not only did they oppress the Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belorussian MAJORITY of the area...they also went as far as deporting Germans in Poland (which really put them in a good light with Hitler).

The Polish state of the time was a feudal chouvinistic state...which took orders from London to start trouble in Europe...and which had no respect for the other countries or other nationalities.

Not only did the Polish state invade USSR in 1920...but in 1938 it started threatening Lithuania with war...and massed its armies on the Lithuanian border. It was only the USSR coming in on Lithuania's side that poland backed down. Than Poland proceded to deport Germans from Poland and moved its army on the German border (all on London'd orders). This was the bully state of Europe...the "ugly child of the Varsaille Treaty" as Lenin called it.

And yes there was oppression against the non-Poles in the occupied territories. Not only the back breaking taxes...which rendered the peasents there extremely poor (with such stupidities as taxes on chimneis!!)...but there were also laws which FORCED non-Catholics to convert to Catholicism if these taxes were to be removed. Those who refused, could not work in any kind of government work...and were thus forced to work for the Polish feudal gentry. They lived in extreme poverty.

Second...as I said the deportations were NOT aimed against the Poles. They did not deport all Poles...just the representatives of the oppressing classes in the area...which were mostly Poles. This was done for several reasons. First, the bourgeois were of course to be eliminated as a class...this was Socialist country now. Second, they had committed crimes against the local popultion...crimes mentioned above (this is where Katyn comes in!). Third, the area was being preapred for fortification to meet a German invasion. Having these hostile people around would not help the effort. So they had to be deported where they could casue less trouble...this is a measure taken during war time..one which the US took as well if I am not mistaken

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Yakoo
USSR was a multi-ethinc state...and respected all those nationalities as equals. Poles in USSR were not treated different from other people's of the USSR. The same cannot be said of Poland. Not only did they oppress the Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belorussian MAJORITY of the area...they also went as far as deporting Germans in Poland (which really put them in a good light with Hitler).

The Polish state of the time was a feudal chouvinistic state...which took orders from London to start trouble in Europe...and which had no respect for the other countries or other nationalities.

Not only did the Polish state invade USSR in 1920...but in 1938 it started threatening Lithuania with war...and massed its armies on the Lithuanian border. It was only the USSR coming in on Lithuania's side that poland backed down. Than Poland proceded to deport Germans from Poland and moved its army on the German border (all on London'd orders). This was the bully state of Europe...the "ugly child of the Varsaille Treaty" as Lenin called it.


Second...as I said the deportations were NOT aimed against the Poles. They did not deport all Poles...just the representatives of the oppressing classes in the area...which were mostly Poles. This was done for several reasons. First, the bourgeois were of course to be eliminated as a class...this was Socialist country now.

Yakoo's dictionary:
USSR - a proud state respecting all nationalities,

Poland - a bully state, appearing without any legitimacy on the world map in 1918, oppressing Germans which led to WWII,

Lenin - a prophet with mind of a genius which was proved by calling Polish state an ugly child of Versailles,

Deportation - well justified Soviet action aimed at eradicating the oppressing classes,

Murder - no translation but instead we have: natural elimination of a hostile oppressive class,

Generalissimus - a well deserved, but proudly rejected honorary title of a moustached Georgian named dzhugashvilli.

Katyn - a symbol of a German crime but at the same time strangely a symbol of good response to the Polish crimes against the extremely poor Soviet citizens,

Revolution - the only justified and legitimate action of extremely poor people against the ugly rich leeches,

The ultimate revolutionary purpose - "eliminating" as many leeches as necessary to ensure eternal happiness of extremely poor people.


For all unexperienced readers of Yakoo's posts: I just recommend to interchange the following terms to get the proper meaning:

good and bad
victim and perpetrator
black and white.

Revolutionary FAQ:
How many leeches are to be eliminated?
Revolutionary FAQ answer:
What a stupid FAQ? ALL of them.

[Yakoo]

Prawda, Maybe thats what you take...since clearly you have refused to even read my posts on those documents...or comment on them.

I have already said...that there are 2 sets of documents...one which orders the Poles arrested for 5-8 years...and then there is this order from Beria...released by none other than Yakovlev...a man who said he himself had examined the executions of 60 million people...but can't prove even one with some documents!!

The document of Beria is a fake...since we have documents which contradict it completely...

And how convinently you ignore the PHYSICAL evidence at the site itself...or the findings of the Polish Red Cross itself!!

And please COMMENT on the physical evidence as well as the other documents in the Soviet Archives about Katyn...such as the order by the Special Commission of the NKVD on ordering that the Polish officers be arrested for a period of 5-8 years.

And regarding what that site says...that the killings were done at the NKVD headquarters in Smolenks...Perhaps you should really read the testimony of the 94 year old man who said that...and see how ridiculous it is (I don't blame the old man...his daughter later said how Gorbachiov's goons harrased him for months while the old man constantly told them he had nothing to say...so he made up a story and told them)

Not to mention...the German-made bullet cases in the graves.

Not to mention what the experts of the International group that visited Katyn said after the war...BTW...the Polish Red Cross refused to give a date on the death certificates of those Polish officers...since it said it was "inconclusive". Clearly they could not give a date like 1942...or the Germans wouldn't publish their findings. But after the war they said the reason they did not put a date in was becasue they knew the killings were done by the Germans.

Before you say "We ALL know the Russians did it"...perhaps you should do some research...and find that there is ABSOLUTELY NO evidence the Soviets did it...except for the document of Beria which is most likely a fake and can be countered by other documents in the archives.

And this is how these myths come about...most of them started by the Nazis themselves...all of them blown out of proportion...most of them never even happened...but the anti-Soviet, anti-Communist, anti-Russian or anti-Slavic sentiment of the "civilized world" keeps these myths alive...just like the myths of brutal "animal" Soviet soldiers raping millions of women in Berlin.

History unfortunately is often written by the wrong people and for the wrong purposes.


The total number of people resettled during WW2 is:

Chechens: 408,000

Volga Germans: 382,000

Crimean Tatars: 202,000

Kalmyks: 134,000

Ingush: 92,000

Karachai: 76,000

Balkars: 43,000

Total: 1,337,000

All of them were resettled becasue of their role in assisting German forces during WW2. The Volga Germans were deported as soon as the war started..so they never really collaborated with the Germans...but the threat that they may was great enough.

The Crimean Tartars were the worst. They formed SS and Gestapo battallions to hunt down Russians or Jews...in total contributed about 20.000 volunteers to the Nazis.

Even before the war...in 1940...discussions were done on what role these people would play in an upcoming war with Germany. It was decided that they most likely would aid the Germans...since there was a lot of nationalistic or religious feeling in these people.

All in all...some 110.000 people from these nations collaborated with the Germans. As it was impossible to determine which individuals had done what...the governmetn decided to deport the entire nations in order to avoid mass punishment or bloodshed.

Not to say that simply bcasue large numbers of these people collaborated with the Germans..that they were not loyal Soviet citizens. The Chechens for example were split...with large numbers joining the Germans...and at the same time large numbers joining the Red Army. On a per capital bases, Chechens recieved more decorations than any other group in the USSR for their role in WW2...and the Chechen Autnomous Republic was given the title Hero of the Soviet Union.

But the problem was in identifing the large numbers who had collaborated with the enemy. It was virtually impossible...

The deportations themselves were not a punishment...as in no punishment was put on them. They were just relocated. Relocation in the USSR meant that they were allowed to take their personal belongings with them. When they got to their new areas...they would recieve free land and free material to rebuild their homes or farms. They would recieve compenstation for any proprety left behind. They would recieve compensation for any animals they left behind. The locacl authorities in the new areas were told to gather funds and resources to give to the new settlers. They also recieved a 5000 ruble loan to help them rebuild their homes as well as trucks, tractors and machinery free of charge to help in the rebuilding.

As for arrests...they were made of known collaborators or of those people who could be identified of having committed war crimes. But arrests for war crimes were not limited to these people...but applied to all.

These were measures which were necessary in a time of war. They were no different from measures the US government took in deporting Japanese or Italians in America...or the French taking revenge on their own collaborators in WW2 (they arrested tens of thousands if I'm not mistaken)