1930's famine

[Simon_Ostap]

I'd like to know from anyone who was alive at the time, if indeed the 1932-1933 famine took place, and if it took place to the extent some historians say.

My confusion stems from the mixed messages coming from most historians on the subject. Some say that Famine in the Ukraine caused the death of up to 17 million people, which would have stood for 20% of the areas population at that date. Other historians claim that such a large death rate is an exaggeration, started by Nazi Germany as propaganda and later picked up as truth by the western world, These historians claim the death rate to have been closer to 1 million, due also in part not just to famine, but epedemics of Typhoid and flue.

Some even say the famine was 'forced' and was a Stalinist plot to weaken the Ukraine and deter any independance movements.

I'd really appreciate any information you'd be willing to share.

[Hannia]

Revelations from the Russian Archives
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/intro.html

The Artificial Famine/Genocide in Ukraine 1932-33
http://www.infoukes.com/history/famine/

Embassy of Ukraine: Address of the Ambassador of Ukraine in Commemoration of th
http://www.infoukes.com/ukremb/sp991123e.shtml

Open Directory - Society: Ethnicity: Ukrainian: Famine-Genocide
http://dmoz.org/Society/Ethnicity/Uk...mine-Genocide/

[Freedom1]

While the numbers will always be no more than an approximation, the forced collectivisation of agriculture is a documented historical event.

[Zbyszek]

History should be written far from any political courts.
I can give examples of professors who must have written their history books as a political order.
Prof. Serczyk is regarded as an expert on Ukrainian history in Poland. I recently looked into his "History of Ukraine" 1979 and I found quite a detailed explanation of the kulak revolts and boycotts which just gave the authorities no room for any liberal stand in Ukraine in the early thirties. Not even one word was mentioned about famine, just a few vague remarks about "temporary difficulties with a grain purchase process". How to respect such a professor?
The same book was rewritten in 2001 and printed under the same title again. I had no time to read it but I do not expect anything but fashionable shift in professor's opinion.
Just to be fair... there were also some other, honest books on Ukraine available in People's Poland (vide Pawel Jasienica, almost a dissident). The censorship usually worked according to the rule: you do not have to invent but you must not say too much. Unfortunately, some professors had a lot of invention.

We have to acknowledge that the very fact of keeping the shameful issue under thick censorship cover is a big crime. Many human lives could have been saved if Stalin had told the world a word about serious food shortages in Ukraine.

[Freedom1]

Yes, I should have been specific, a documented historical event in WESTERN historical/political texts.

And Stalin wouldn't have told the world anything. The shortages were, in my opinion, a positive side-benefit for political expediency.

Another example of the positive effects of today's rapid information transfers. You can't hide as easily.

[happy_gunner]

It is still politically incorrect in some US and British circles to recognise the famine, a lot of academics are "champaigne socialists", like the Fabian Society in the UK. As well as G B Shaw's "were they all wearing padding?" derision, the foreign journos in the CCCP were aware of it but were afraid of losing their cushy jobs, some of these later won awards for their coverage of the show-trials in Moscow, despite ignoring one of the biggest mass-murders in history.

As some posts on this and other forums show, Stalin was the master - still fooling people fifty years after death.

[Freedom1]

Gunner, I cannot speak of the UK, but I can say with certainty, that here in the States, this is not the case. IT IS A HISTORICAL FACT, pure and simple NOT open to interpretation or revisionism. But as I said, the numbers of dead are elusive.

But as to your comment on Stalin, man dude, I'm new here, but the disinformation campaigns of the NKVD seem to still be running here on this forum. Divisiveness seems rampant. And all Ukrainian Nationalists of the WWII era are Nazis and killer of Jews, and others.

Thats got to be the longest run "public relations" campaign of any intelligence service. Madison Avenue would be proud.