What did the Church Union of Brest 1596 mean for Rus/Ukraine and its neighbours?

[Halina]

Dear Yuri,

Sorry about that! I shouldn't have used a Polish name. 'Rzeczpospolita' stands for the Commonwealth of two nations (Poland & Lithuania) and means 'the republic' /res publica/, where the political & administrative systems were arranged for the common good /pro publico bono/.

As for the wide spectrum of the modern Ukrainian society, I am not surprised that there is such a multitude of attitudes and loyalties. This undoubtedly stems from the historical past of the country, from both the Russian & the Polish presence in the Ukraine, when the indigenous culture was sometimes forcibly overshadowed by the 'newcomers'.

I find your impressions really important! You see, when I went to the Ukraine (Lviv) last year, I was surprised how well I could communicate with the locals. I spoke Polish & they spoke Ukrainian. Yet, there was NO problem whatsoever with mutual understanding. I have no experience of the Eastern part of the country, though.

'Sovietski cholowjek' as you describe him sounds familiar. We also have the 'Homo Sovieticus' types in Poland. This species usually has no respect for education, or for ethical and religous values. He/she usually sneers at history and has a rather bitter attitude to democracy, where no tricks and shortcuts (i.e party membership) are involved in making good career and in climbing the social ladder.

Hard work and honesty are an enigma to 'Homo Sovieticus', who has always used bribes and false ideology to get along in life.

As for the 'Ukrainian nationalism', to some degree such tendencies can be understandable, though not always justified. Ukraine struggled for freedom for centuries and her independence is very very young. The nationalistic tendencies are a crude response to the turbulent past and to the shaken national identity, which is not deprived of complexes, either.

I think that the nationalistic tendencies exist everywhere, but nowadays, following the collapse of the Soviet Union,they are particularly strong in the Eastern Europe. The previous Soviet republics,which have recently regained their freedom, simply tend to reassert themselves against the Soviet dominance. Thus, their patritism sometimes goes to extremes and turns - de facto - into nationalism.

I think this is a temporary phenomenon and in the course of time, after those countries have reached a good level of wealth & stability, such tendencies will be very rare.

The latter is especially important in the case of Russia, which has lost her empire. The condemnation of her revolutionary past and the resulting lack of any ideals are a traumatic experience, which finds an outlet in the violent nationalism. Let's hope this is transient, too!

[Halina]

Originally posted by mishaaverko


I personally know a RUSSIAN whose parents emigrated to America from Galicia in the early 19 hundreds. One of the first things his family did was reconvert to the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church out of the belief that the Uniate influence was part of a foreign occupation hostile to the Kievan Rus legacy.

Misha, are you suggesting that the Uniates have no right to the Kievan Rus legacy? In that case, Yuri, for instance, is to be condemned as an outcast because he is not a member of the RUSSIAN Orthodox Church,(Never mind Kievan Rus). Is that right?
No comments.

Originally posted by mishaaverko

Gogol was a Russian-Ukrainian, whose epic Taras Bulba heroically depicts the RUSSIAN struggle against Polish occupation.

And Taras Shevchenko (1814-61) was a Ukrainian Romantic poet whose literary work has always had enormous influence on his countrymen, comaparbale to that of Mickiewicz in Poland, or Pushkin in Russia.
He wasn't very fond of Poles at all (especially the Jesuits), yet he distinguished clearly between the derogative 'Lyach' and the Pole. He also warned his fellow Ukrainians:

You boast, because we once
Brought Poland to calamity...
And so it was; Poland fell;
But you were crushed by her fall as well


A chvanytes', shcho my Pol'shchu
Kolys' zavalyly!...
Pravda vasha: Pol'shcha vpala
Ta i vas rozdavyla.
I mertvym i zhyvym.

Who - do you think - crushed Rzeczpospolita and with her the Ukraine, Misha? And if the tragedy of the Ukraine subjugated by Muscovy had not been a fact, why did the best poet of the Ukraine and the voice of her conscience(as Romantic poets often were) warn against the hordes of Muscovy?

Originally posted by mishaaverko

I justifiably don't accept this crapola about how comparatively more freer and democratic Polish occupation was over Russian governed Ukraine.

Please, see the poem above.

[mishaaverko]

Halina

Like I stated previously, it's not a crime in itself to be Uniate. Neither is it to not be a Uniate and desire the reunification of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

I once again note the childish suggestions of Poland representing virtue against a demonic Russia.

As for hating the Musovites, in the US alot of non-New Yorkers resent New Yorkers. Such rivalry stops when a foreeign aggressor challenges America.

Gogol's Taras Bulba is a similar expression.

[AtamanSapiecha]

[
>>.Like I stated previously, it's not a crime in itself to be Uniate. Neither is it to not be a Uniate and desire the reunification of Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.<<<<


You desire ,me fuuucken no ,we Europa ,them Assia and little europa

>>>>I once again note the childish suggestions of Poland representing virtue against a demonic Russia.<<<<

Old people ,Belaruss ,remember Poland good ,young like too .We brothers slavic ,screw union with Moskva.

]

[yurilev0]

Once again Misha, your revisionist history of convienience comes into play. Taras Bulba had NOTHING to do with Russia. Taras Bulba was a Rusyn-Ruthenian. In the stage of history in which this epic was set, we only have MUSCOVY in the north. Go read Misha...please read. You really shouldn't be in this discussion.

[mishaaverko]

Yuri

You actually mean to say that you don't desire people who reject your revisionist points. Gogol was a Russian-Ukrainian writer and Taras Bulba portrayed a Russian. There were no Ukrainians at the time.

Kathy a Ukrainian nationalist acknowledges Kiev based Riuriks moving north and that the heroic Russian figure Alexander Nevsky had Kievan roots.

How about Yevgeny Plushenko or Irina Slutskaya, whose surname is Belarussian in origin?

There will always be a legitimate large scale rejection of your attempts to try to claim separate Russian and Ukrainian identities in the manner of Poland and Ukraine being two separate peoples.

[makcum]

⌠You actually mean to say that you don't desire people who reject your revisionist points. Gogol was a Russian-Ukrainian writer and Taras Bulba portrayed a Russian. There were no Ukrainians at the time.■

Misha, are you an illiterate idiot now? Yuri did not call Taras Bolba a Ukrainian but ⌠Rusyn-Ruthenian■, read his post. You still believe Russia existed at this time, you are not worth the time.