Petro Mohyla, Adam Kysil and other true Ukrainian idealists

[Zbyszek]

Ukraine needs peace and harmony...

Petro Mohyla is surely one of those men all Ukraine can be proud of. A real integrator and enlighter.

"While it has been admitted now that the great Moldavian-born Ukrainian anticipated the modern ecumenical movement 300 years ago, many Soviet historians recently accused Mohyla of promoting Polish Catholic influence on the Ukrainian people. This is a vivid example of their black-and- white, winner-or-loser, friend-or-foe thinking. But Mohyla did not think that, being an Orthodox faith follower, he necessarily had to hate Catholics or Uniates. For Christ had said that there are neither Greeks nor Jews, as well as to love our enemies."

As a Pole, I can add that Rzeczpospolita, with its general tolerant religious attitude, apparently lacked wisdom and tact when it came to the Orthodox religion which was often viewed as the "lesser" Christianity. I can add it was not an originally Polish idea but a foreign view imported by a fanatic Swedish king Sigismund. His son Vladislaus was much more tactful but it was not easy to restore a broken vase of harmony. Mohyla was one of far-reaching religious leaders who realized that knowing more is not a sin.
You can find more info:
http://day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2001/02/culture/cul1.htm
Moreover, Muscovy was enlightened by those progressive Kievan theologians who came in the second half of the XVIIth century to Moscow from Kiev and "moved the Kievan science there" (according to Kostomarov, a Russian-Ukrainian XIXth cent. historian). These progressive cadres fought for a long time with the conservative clergy of Moscow until the old prejudice has been overcome and new, more educated approach was adopted.

Johnstruthers is surely glad that Mykolaiv has something to do with Petro Mohyla.
Look at the website of the Mykolaiv State Humanitarian University named after Petro Mohyla.


http://www.kma.mk.ua/

Adam Kysil deserves our special respect as a counterbalance of the bellicose Bohdan Khmyelnitsky. A lot of blood could be spared if people listened to his wise voice in the XVIIth century.
http://day.kiev.ua/DIGEST/2001/38/culture/cul1.htm
Kysil was a graduate of famous Academia Zamoyska, a XVIth century Renaissance educative center preaching religious tolerance, placed in Zamosc. Kysil was a faithful Orthodox but he recognized multinational Rzeczpospolita as his Partia. He was many decades ahead of his time.

Both leaders understood that setting up universities is more effective than promoting armaments.

[Zaporizhzhya]

I have never met a Pole or a Jew who had anything positive to say about Cossacks.

[Zbyszek]

Hi Zaporizhzhya,

You are mistaken about me.
I have an impression that you do not carefully read what I wrote or what I referenced.
Is it my assessment of Khmyelnitski that made you say I am against Cossacks?
In fact Khmyelnitski was a tragic person who brought a sad plight on the Ukrainian nation. Some historians estimate that the setback he brought to Ukraine(human and material) can be counted as about 100 years. The population in Ukraine nearly halved at his times! I think some of the present troubles of Ukraine are still an aftermath of what he did. I do not say it was all his fault but it was all with his lion share.
Khmyelnitski was not the only Cossack commander. Petro Konaszewicz Sahajdachny or Ivan Vyhovski were different personalities. You joined our discussion in the middle. Please read the old posts first.
I just say we should not idealize Cossacks as they were brave but wild, unpredictible and cruel soldiers at the same time. Any government in the world would have troubles with them.
Anyway, it is a pity that you did not comment on Petro Mohyla or Adam Kysil who I respect much. Unfortunately, unhampered hatred won over their modest approach.

Please read something at:
http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...5&pagenumber=1
...and have a good Christmas evening!


Now, are really you going to say I am the first Pole to respect (some) Cossacks?

[Edited by Zbyszek on 8th January 2003 at 00:51]

[Halina]

Originally posted by Zaporizhzhya
I have never met a Pole or a Jew who had anything positive to say about Cossacks.

Hello Zaporizhzhya,

Poles & Jews - the source of the worst imaginable evil for the Ukrainian Cossacs, aren't they? Here are some Ukrainian proverbs to prove how the two (Poles and Jews) are really two sides of the same coin:

-'Cockles must be removed from corn, the Jews and Poles must be slain.'

-'When the wicked Pole brought the Jew with him, the Jews became masters and we were reduced to beggary.'

(proverbs quoted by Bohdan Struminski - Ukrainian Slavist and linguist at the University of Cambridge, in 'The Stereotype of a Pole in Ukrainian Proverbs', International Cultural Centre, Krakow, 1995).

When I asked my mother why I - as a Pole - had sucked anti-semitism from her breast ( she has been accused of it, you see, on another thread here), she could not stop laughing on the phone. Because it is laughable. Just like your statement, some comments on the other thread and like those proverbs, which - I hope - reflect only the attitude of the past, no?

P.S
Be careful what you say about Jews since by your statement you have just contradicted some (not all) Ukrainian disputants' self -complimentary historical theory.(Never mind the Poles).

[Edited by Halina on 7th January 2003 at 23:58]

[Nickolas]

In no particular order:

A Cossack is a Cossack.

A Jew is a Jew.

A Pole is a Pole.

May we all live together in peace.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Nickolas
In no particular order:

A Cossack is a Cossack.

A Jew is a Jew.

A Pole is a Pole.

May we all live together in peace.

Amen

(Amen is a Hebrew word which was then borrowed by the Greeks and Romans). Its meanings:
1. firm
metaph. faithful
2. verily, amen
at the beginning of a discourse - surely, truly, of a truth
at the end - so it is, so be it, may it be fulfilled. It was a custom, which passed over from the synagogues to the Christian assemblies, that when he who had read or discoursed, had offered up solemn prayer to God, the others responded Amen, and thus made the substance of what was uttered their own.

[Zaporizhzhya]

To Zbyszek: I suppose you think Polish invaders and their Jewish sub-lease agents would have brought prosperity to Ukraine as opposed to Khmelnitsky and his war of independence. I won▓t be surprised if you call Nestor Makhno a bandit as well.