WWII

[mishaaverko]

Zbig

I'm reading about how Poland crushed Lithuanian identity in 1791. This explains why many Lithuanians don't view Warsaw as this great center of freedom.

As for Ukraine, the Trident is very much a Russian symbol. Germany was dominated by the Lutheran Prussia of the Hohenzollerns, whereas Austria was ruled by the Catholic Hapsburgs who snobishly looked down on the Prussians (a Germanized Slavic tribe).

Russia and Ukraine for much of history had the same church and rulers.

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by mishaaverko
Zbig

I'm reading about how Poland crushed Lithuanian identity in 1791. This explains why many Lithuanians don't view Warsaw as this great center of freedom.

You're completely out of logic Misha. You translate XXth century nationalism into the time when it simply did not exist.
So you claim that, with one of the most progressive European acts (3rd MAY constitution), Poland crushed Lithuanian identity.
If so, explain me please why Lithuanians, along with Poles participated in 1794, 1830/31 and 1863 uprisings against the Trarist rules? Why did Vilnius university flourish and why did Mickiewicz and his Polish+Lithuanian colleagues set up anti-Tzarist youth organizations? Why was Muravyoff-Vyeshatyel so busy hanging Lithuanians and Polish patriots?

Rzeczpospolita was in a deplorable condition at that time so she could not do much. However, her last effort are noble and deserve respect. Be sure Catherine II did not like and did not stand any democracy in Warsaw.
Now Lithuanians are about to enter European Union together with the Poles. I will travel to Vilnius as easily as I now travel to Cracow. It will be really a great moment, Misha.

There was no problem with Prussian protestant religion but there was a BIG problem with Prussian militarism and expansionist ambtitions(Drang nach Osten policy).
Almost all historians: Russian, Lithuanian and Polish agree that the astonishing act of mercy on Rzeczpospolita side in 1525 (domination instead of incorporating the Prussen Dukedom which was so easy then) was maybe the biggest political error in Polish history. It backfired so many times in the most terrible way, last time in WWII.
Do not forget that Teutonic Knigths totally erased original Baltic Prussian nation stealing its name.

I would like to say am very sorry be off topic. I should not get provoked with Misha's out of context statements.
WWII time complicated Polish-Lithuanian relations but, same as with Polish-Ukrainian relations, but a long time of our geo-politic separation had a positive effect on our future links , I am sure.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 15th March 2003 at 21:37]

[mishaaverko]

Zbig

The Lithuanians in general have a much different perception of those topics you raise. Another example of sugar coating. Even The New York Times and BBC made reference to how the Pope didn't get such an enthusiastic welcome by Lithuanians when he visited their country.

I don't deny that the Lithuanians have problems with the Russians. But you're mistaken to think that this translates into a hero worship of Poles.

There's no comparing the Russian-Ukrainian-Belarussian solidarity to the comparably less fraternal Polish-Lithuanian relationship.

[Wotan]

You wonder how the world would lock like if germany haved stayed alied to Russia. I can tell you that there where never any choise both Stalin and Hitler Know that there was youst a mather of time before the war.
I will give you something to think about. If sweden have shown Hitler some guts and said no to the transports of iron,if you didnt now so was sweden the bigest exporter of iron to germany and after the war started the only one to relay on when i camed to deliver iron. Probably would the war ended youst six motnh after a stopp. That neser hapend swedish iron killed people both in russia and europe. Thats something to think about.

With regards
WOTAN.

[Volodya987]

There is only NOW. No matter how we wish "history to be different," only now exists and matters.
Forget the ancient baggage, without forgetting the truth.
For truth;
"All life on Earth is the physical manifestation of the spirit within Earth."

[Zbyszek]

September 1, 1939 – beginning of WWII – a memory of this day makes many people tremble. Nazi government of Germany turned a bad dream into a terrible reality. Tomorrow, presidents and prime ministers of many European countries meet in Gdansk (Danzig) where first bombs exploded seventy years ago. Chancellor of Germany and Prime Minister of Russia will attend. Prime ministers of Ukraine and Poland will be present, too. Reading this thread again I see clearly that WWII topic is still on our minds. WWI, historically only 20 years older, attracts much less attention.
Probably those Europeans who lived out WWI and were about to face WWII, lacked imagination as to what war can be.

[jedna_brew]

hi viking,

imo, war between nazi germany and soviet russia was unavoidable. if hitler didn't attack russia in 41, stalin would attack germany, at the latest in 42-43. imo suworow - russian spy, who becames a historian, has right. stalin wants to bleed europe using european hands to do it. to realise this plan, german army should by busy fighting in western europe, leaving estern border unsecured. then, stalin could stab hitlers ass. hitler has no other choice, but he make fatal mistake. he postponed barbarossa operation and attacked too late.