Lwow

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by Hannia
Helina -

I have just gotten back from Italy.

I noticed your aforementioned Polish architectural influence in every Italian city/town I visited!!!
Such widespread Polish influence is indeed very impressive.

Hello Hannia,

POlish rennaissanse architecture surely developed under the Italian influence - no doubt. Anyway I do not think it is a negative factor. Nothing to be embarassed about.
European architecture is nothing more than a series of fine mutually influenced ideas and the inspiration travelled usually from the West to the East of Europe. The wise Italian wife of the Rzeczpospolita King Sigismud the Old (who himself was of Lithuanian ancestry), named Bona contributed much to the Polish "golden century" (XVIth century). We keep a very good memory of her in Poland.



Halina, I have to say I am dissapointed with you last posts. Why so nervous? Zupbonz played Polish jokes and I just waited for the Ukrainian ones. You took it too serious.
Then, being a guest here, you started to make some general comments on Ukrainians which were neither polite nor all true.
You should read more posts in this forum. You draw conclusions too quickly.
Makcum said something important about UPA extremists which
gives him much much credibility.
You really downplay Ukrainian achievements and it is not true that we Poles do not need Ukrainians. They go to Poland to work here and they are good, disciplined and effective workers. They are also very good musicians. Independent, prosperous and, first of all, friendly Ukraine is our best national interest and it is not because of my "relativism" as you once stated.
Do you remember how we Poles were looking for bettering our life in the West of Europe not so long ago?
Your response to Zupbonz should be personal but you made it
general. Please remind the famous words of our primate, directed to Germans in the sixties, in the middle of the cold war: We forgive and we ask for being forgiven. DO you remember the rage of the Polish communists then - how Wyszynski dared forgiving our fascist oppressors? Comrade Gomulka was foaming.
Please, read more texts here and try to adopt more balanced views. Recognize the educated opinions of Zhuk and Andrej.
Slow down, please.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 27th September 2002 at 13:17]

[zhuk]

In todays shoolbooks for ukrainian kids is written, that kiev architecture may be compared to Konstantinople one.
It seemes me, that it was irony of the textbook author.

the masterpieces of Konstantinople architecture could not be compared to Kiev one. Just have a look. Do not be blinded by school textbooks.
Do you really like an awkward architecture of Golden gates in Kiev? It is in reality just a 19th century fake.

The Cathedral, which you show on the photos is just a late 20th century fake.
It is very questionable and doubtfull, that it really was the same building in the 17th century.

[hanja-be]

Thank you Zbyszek for some of your wise words.
For my job I have a lot of contacts with poland. What I try to do is, and I try to make the best of it, even that it is very hard sometimes.
History cannot be forgotten but there is one thing we have to do LEARN from it, not to make again the same mistakes.
Still a lot of people do not learn it, as I was this week in Poland and met some friends there - we were talking ukrainian and you had to heard the comments of people. So there is one thing that I not understand, Germany took Poland ruthless and still if you speak German there is no problem everybody helps you, as soon as you dare to speak ukrianian the help stops the rest you can fill in.

Halina, in your mail you are writing Architects were of polish identity could be or not, because I do not know for sure what there real origin was - as my parents both born near L'viv, my mother always says - if you were lucky and your parents could pay for your studies you had to take the Polish nationality otherwise there was no job and future for you. So a lot of ukrainian that had studied took this identity to have work and try to help other people. She was not lucky as she was orphan and went only two years to school - and after those two years she knew reading and writing in both languages ukrainian and polish and that only because her teacher was not of polish origin but from birth ukrainian.
My father had a real polish teacher in his village - what was the outcome he knew polish too, but nobody has ever heard him speak polish.

But still L'viv remains ukraine what everybody wants.

Hanja

[Halina]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zbyszek

Please, read more texts here and try to adopt more balanced views. Recognize the educated opinions of Zhuk and Andrej.
Slow down, please.

Drogi Zbyszku,

Thank you very much for your advise. You are wrong. Please, you try to read all the notes more carefully. The thing is that I do understand your attempts to be a go-between & to see everything in terms of 'pretty, pretty, goody, goody'( by means of self-criticism, calming down Ukrainian emotions etc.). This is your right. But that does not mean I am going to turn blind eye at lies about how Lwow has been built by Ukrainians & how Poland had their own Waffen SS.

Besides, I have stressed on many occasions that not all Ukrainians are bad at all. I have said Kiev is surely a beautiful place. Moreover, I've said my very very good friend here in the UK is UKRAINIAN. Have I ever mentioned any Ukrainian workers in Poland? No. So what are you talking about ? I do not know if you have noticed but this side is on LWOW, not on the quality of Ukrainian work in Poland.

Now, thanks for your comments on the Italian influence in Lwow. That is indeed true. I have not read Davies's book yet, but I surely will.

[Halina]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by makcum
The craftsman would of been Ukrainian, but the architects Austrian. Lviv, as I have stated before, is a city of AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN (sinking in yet?), with Ukrainian influence. (...) If they were Polish churches then the population would be Roman Catholic;

The Roman-Catholic population of Lwow is scarce in the city because Poles were either murdered, or expelled by Soviets & Ukrainians.
Do you realise how many churches in Lwow were in fact built by Poles ? 80% ( I know this from people who lived there before the war, from books & also from my Ukrainian guide in Lwow!).
Now, you can still give no examples by way of names & places allegedlly built by 'Ukrainian craftsmen' in Lwow.

In fact, I feel sorry for you. So hard do you try to find a label for Lwow that you have mixed up all your arguments. One day the city has been built by 'Ukrainian craftsmen', another day it is German, or Austro-Hungarian. Maybe tomorrow it will be French ?

[Halina]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hanja-be

Halina, in your mail you are writing Architects were of polish identity could be or not, because I do not know for sure what there real origin was - as my parents both born near L'viv, my mother always says - if you were lucky and your parents could pay for your studies you had to take the Polish nationality otherwise there was no job and future for you. So a lot of ukrainian that had studied took this identity to have work and try to help other people. She was not lucky as she was orphan and went only two years to school - and after those two years she knew reading and writing in both languages ukrainian and polish and that only because her teacher was not of polish origin but from birth ukrainian.

Hi Hanja-be,

I am very sorry if you have come across any difficulties, or rudness during your visits to Poland. I was not exactly welcome in Ukraine, either, but I think this should definitely be forgotten. In fact, I like your comments and I feel it may be true what you are saying about the merits of being Polish in Lwow at one point. By the same token, though, Poles are much discriminated in this city nowadays, too.

All in all, I agree with you that history should not be full of hatred & spite. Thanks for your e-mails. I do like your comments. I hope not all Poles ignore you when you come to my country.

[makcum]

In fact, I feel sorry for you. So hard do you try to find a label for Lwow that you have mixed up all your arguments. One day the city has been built by 'Ukrainian craftsmen', another day it is German, or Austro-Hungarian. Maybe tomorrow it will be French ?

My first post:

"Vienna was the capital of Hapsburg Europe and had many splinter cities with the same design, Prague, Krakow and Lviv."

Do you really like an awkward architecture of Golden gates in Kiev? It is in reality just a 19th century fake.

I have became sick of argueing comments based on Soviet-racism, Kyiv was a great city that cultured the Russians.