Pilsudsky and Petliura

[Halina]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The_Last_Word
[B]After seeing Jarema▓s stupid comment about Pilsudsky and Petliura as if they were liberators of the Ukraine and guardians of its independence, I decided to write this post.
Polish dictator Yuzef Pilsudsky was not as much a hero as he was a power-hungry imperialist, comparable to Hitler and Stalin. Pilsudsky dreamed of restoring the Rec Pospolita empire in its 1772 borders, which was the predominant orientation of Poland▓s foreign policy in the interwar years.

Last Word, Love

It is really hard for you to accept the fact that Russian bolsheviks were totally defeated by Pilsudzki in 1920, isn't it ? Hence those longish, boring comments & emblems of Russian empire on the site. You are really angry that Stalin - your great hero is compared to Hitler all over the world, aren't you ? What ideals, what dreams will you cling to after all that ? Here's a quote from Davies's 'Europe' for you ( the Battle at the Vistula, 1920 as described by the British ambassador to Berlin, who had seen the action):

'If Charles Martel had not checked the Saracen conquest at Tours.... the Koran would now be taught at the schools of Oxford... Had Pilsudzki and Weygand failed to arrest the triumphant march of the Soviet army at the Battle of Warsaw, not only would Christianity have experienced a dangerous reverse, but the very existence of western civilisation would have been imperilled.'

I don't want to worry you, Last Word, but this was one of the 7 battles in the history of the World that was miraculously won & which prevented the fall the civilised world.
Now, I know it it hard when no one likes your country & does not want to have anything to do with it. However, we do not bear a grudge against Russian people. It is your evil uncivilised, undemocratic governments that we don't want to deal with. For the famine in the Ukraine, for Polish Katyn, for Hungarian 1956 etc. etc. - you will have to work long & hard to earn the name of a civilised country.
That's a shame because the people have not always been guilty.
Last Word, take care Sweetie.

[Zbyszek]

The_Last_Word,

Before I start my discussion with you, I would like to declare that I am not seeking any competitive edge over you. I am rather devoted to my mission which I announced in one of my previous posts entitled: "To the Muscovian friends".
I read many of your posts. You really present a high-brow profile. You are able to compose long, comprehensive texts and you write very often.
You argue presenting plenty of facts which you sometimes throw at your opponents like hard rocks. You try to intimidate them, accusing them of ignorance, poor education or evil intentions.
I was educated at highly reputed high school (Lyceum) in Warszawa. This respectable lyceum, set up in 1906, was named after the tragic Polish patriot Tadeusz Reytan. He defended the entrance to the Polish Senate Chamber in 1773 with his bare chest, trying to prevent the entrance of parliament members headed by the Tzar-paid traitor Adam Poninski. Poland was dying.
Yes, I was educated at a time of communist rule in Poland. I had to learn Russian at my school, there was no way to avoid it. Our teachers did not instruct us to hate anyone or any other nation. Happily, my teacher of Russian was a good and committed woman, who took a lot of effort and arranged a wonderful trip to the Soviet Union for our class. We visited Kiev, Sochi and Moscow. I remember our friendly but sometimes hot discussions with Russians. Some of them were absolutely sure the Poland would turn into one of the Soviet republics in few years.
History was a subject of high priority at my school and some of my friends just loved to argue. I remember endless historic & political discussions with our teachers (some of them were old enough to be employed as teachers before WWII, when Poland was still a free country). Inevitably, there were so called white spots in our historic knowledge. Some taboos just provoked us to disclose them fiercely thus bringing our poor teachers to despair!
Poland of the seventies was a kind of a communist maverick, with the absolutely unsuccessful economy, high expectations of people and some narrow margin of civil liberties including a "graciously" granted right for tourist travels to the West. Inhaling the Western air was at that time almost like taking drugs.
I also took my portion in the late seventies and I was like drunk, I must say. The access to the Polish Western Emigration literary references was a big shock.
I was never the same again. I often read those books like Skawinski his poetry (see my contribution "Power of the printed words" in the thread named "Ukraine-Poland"), all through the nights.
I was graduated from the technological university but I never ceased to be interested in history and politics.
TLW, your basic approach is hardly acceptable for any citizen of numerous nations being subjected to the Soviet power in the past. You in no way agree to take any responsibility for the Soviet atrocities claiming that Russians suffered the most. Nice, I could embrace it. Then, you accuse Rzeczpospolita, her ruling class and her representatives of numerous wrongs aimed at the eradication of the national feelings of Russian-speaking population. You miss any reasonable proportions.
Now, I would like to ask you where the capital of the brutal superpower was- on the moon? Who installed the foreign troops in Poland and have kept them for more than forty five years after WWII- brownies did? Who killed the Polish Army officers in Katyn and kept accusing Germans of this heinous crime for half a century- kiwis did?
And those methods - who sent millions to the Gulag Archipelago Islands, who kicked out the whole nations from their birth-lands, who invaded Afghanistan - Romans did?
Do you really think that millions of Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Tatar etc. etc. patriots arriving in Siberia in XIXth/XXth century lived there by their own will?
It is a part of your national shame and you should share it with your countrymen but you are not going to.
Poles also committed the shameful acts but Poland and its people are strong enough to discuss it now. You lack this kind of courage while I would really consider it a courageous act. President Yeltsin's apology for the Katyn issue was expected and welcomed in Poland. Just a good pattern for you.
Please, get me right. I do not intend to have you on your knees begging for being forgiven. It is not a Canossa case. But look, you are on the forum on the newly independent state which suffered much under the Russian/Soviet rule. What are you doing here? You are crying over the Ukrainization of the Eastern Ukraine. I personally think that Ukraine could be a bilingual society but on the other hand every Ukrainian citizen including Russians and Poles should speak and write Ukrainian. Your historic back references are really overstated.

I am sure you have much more facts at hand that you could use but for the reason unknown to me, you do not use them.

Let us confront just one issue┘.
You took up my proposal of the Polish-Russian reconciliation but what did you suggest? You requested the rebuilding of the "Russian Cathedral" in Warsaw, destroyed by the Poles, as a first step,. Mysteriously enough, you failed to present some facts. Now look Makcum , Hanja, Hannia, Irinka, StasUA and other Ukrainian disputants what TLW has in mind.
I am surely not after destroying any churches. It is not a civilized act.
The construction of the Orthodox church in Warsaw was initiated in 1894, when Warsaw, together with the eastern Poland was under the Tzarist rule and without any hope for independence. The church was erected on the elegant Saxony square, surrounded by beautiful baroque palaces. Curious about? Here you have a link showing the prewar photographs of Warsaw.
http://fotoinfo.pl/filstr20.htm
The church's architecture was as if taken directly from Moscow. What could it say to the Catholic Varsavians? You all would easily guess. It was nothing more like a vivid symbol of the imperial Russian power, like TLW's signature. TLW calls it a "Russian cathedral". I am curious what do people posting here think about it? For me, it is just an architectural monster, additionally famed by the enormous financial scandals accompanying the prolonged construction process. Try to imagine that sort of building in Prague or Budapest. It was pulled down, not destroyed, following the special decree of the Polish parliament in 1926.
Had its architecture been beautiful like that of Lwow's Orthodox churches, it would have surely been saved, maybe turned into the RC church. I admire Lwow's churches and I would be the first to vote for a beautiful Orthodox shrine in Warsaw even now. Unlike the Orthodox Church hierarchy in Russia, I am not afraid of any proselytism here, in Poland.
We obtained next such "gift" from Stalin in 1953. Everyone arriving in Warsaw can see. I was a guide of a Japanese professor three weeks ago. He asked: what is that strange tower in the center of your town? A church?
I told him an old Varsavian joke in reply. Would you like to have the best possible view of Warsaw? So jump up this tower and enjoy. It is this only place in the city where this "masterpiece" is invisible!

Then, your aggressive statements concerning the Pope hurt me again and encouraged me to publish the TLWish-English dictionary(Politics tab, thread named "A key question +Pope's visit"). You surely watch TV from time to time and you know that no one commands millions of people in many places including Ukraine to gather in one place and wait patiently for hours to hear His words. This should prompt you to show a minimum respect for the aggression-free, respected personality. Instead, you are foaming with anger and insults. The dictionary was composed of your own words and it made you an enemy of your own words. You keep accusing StasUA of deleting your posts - do not you think he has his little revenge now, seeing that you really said too much rather than not enough?
I heard of a university professor in prewar Lwow who asked his students for buying the edition of his own book for him because he wrote something really arrogant and tried to get rid out of his own statement(he was an outstanding expert on materials strength). TLW, do not be like this professor.

Well, I could also borrow plenty of facts taken from more or less objective "sources". I know some details of the British Ph.D. thesis devoted to the Polish-Soviet war of 1920. Maybe it could prove useful for our discussion on the Petliura-Pilsduski thread. I could refer to "The Commonwealth of Two Nations" by Pawel Jasienica, published in New York for facing your opinion on Rzeczpospolita. (He is surprisingly balanced in spite if the fact that first Polish edition was issued in People's Poland in 1967. A good reading for the reasonable Ukrainians, too. I can give more details at somebody's request).
I will do nothing like this. TLW, please refer to TuchajBay's stories in a thread named "Ukraine -Poland".
I consider TuchajBay a true leader of this thread. His views, based on his personal experience give me so much hope. I will surely show his contributions to my children with a comment: look kids, even the worst, the most inhuman political system is incapable of depriving some people of their basic, instinctive dignity.

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Halina

Last Word, Love

It is really hard for you to accept the fact that Russian bolsheviks were totally defeated by Pilsudzki in 1920, isn't it ? Hence those longish, boring comments & emblems of Russian empire on the site. You are really angry that Stalin - your great hero is compared to Hitler all over the world, aren't you ? What ideals, what dreams will you cling to after all that ? Here's a quote from Davies's 'Europe' for you ( the Battle at the Vistula, 1920 as described by the British ambassador to Berlin, who had seen the action):

Hello, Halina,
Welcome to the forum.

Obviously, you missed the point. I don▓t lament Polish victory of defeat, as you imagine. A typically imperialist Poland grabbed pieces of land from Russia, Germany, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia and even the briefly independent Ukraine.
Must have been a real effort for you to read my ⌠boring■ posts and look at the Russian imperial coat of arms. That▓s probably what gave you the idea that Stalin is my ⌠hero.■ But that▓s ok, I can forgive.

Other than Grushevsky, Norman Davies is the only favorite source for Ukrainian history nationalists, so I am sure to never waste my money on his book. BTW even many of you don▓t have a copy of Grushevsky.

'If Charles Martel had not checked the Saracen conquest at Tours.... the Koran would now be taught at the schools of Oxford... Had Pilsudzki and Weygand failed to arrest the triumphant march of the Soviet army at the Battle of Warsaw, not only would Christianity have experienced a dangerous reverse, but the very existence of western civilisation would have been imperilled.'

Empty words.
Pilsudsky was systematic in uprooting the ⌠Eastern■ Russian Orthodox civilization from Russian (Belarus, Galicia and Volynia) lands. He destroyed Orthodox churches, closed Russian schools, etc. Even in Russia, Christianity did not die after 70 years of communist rule.

I don't want to worry you, Last Word, but this was one of the 7 battles in the history of the World that was miraculously won & which prevented the fall the civilised world.

Right, any battle against the Russians resulting in victory is always ⌠miraculous and historic.■ It is also a victory against overwhelming numbers of Russians and unbelievable odds and troubles.
Way to give yourself the extra credit.

Read my post again (or other sources) to find out how Pilsudsky used the money given to him to fight communists and how he collaborated with the same communists in dividing Russian lands, etc.

Now, I know it it hard when no one likes your country & does not want to have anything to do with it. However, we do not bear a grudge against Russian people. It is your evil uncivilised, undemocratic governments that we don't want to deal with.

It▓s just your way of saying you personally hate the Russians and their country.

Liking or not liking is a free choice, depends on what you believe in. The Pope, for example, would love to love Russia and Ukraine if they converted to Catholicism. I don▓t think Russians and Ukrainians would want that kind of love - so they get hate instead.
Others implied they would like Russia more if it divided into several states, the Russians don't wnat that, so they are hated. Some Ukrainians, for example, hate Russia because they feel insecure occupying historic Russian land where most people speak Russian, so they hate Russia. They furhtermore wrongfully believe that Ukraine was Russified where in reality it was Russian-speaking before it became Ukrainian, and so they hate Russia even more.

FYI just in case you didn▓t know, Russia is a civilization different from Western Europe. Like it or not. But since it's not, it's hated for being different.

For the famine in the Ukraine, for Polish Katyn, for Hungarian 1956 etc. etc. - you will have to work long & hard to earn the name of a civilised country.
That's a shame because the people have not always been guilty.
Last Word, take care Sweetie.

You mean the famine in Russia that included a small part of the historic Ukraine.
There are just as many if not more atrocities committed by the same Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, etc. You just don▓t read about them.

Smooches┘

[The_Last_Word]

Originally posted by Zbyszek
The_Last_Word,

Before I start my discussion with you, I would like to declare that I am not seeking any competitive edge over you. I am rather devoted to my mission which I announced in one of my previous posts entitled: "To the Muscovian friends".

I don▓t know if anybody told you, but you defeated your purpose from the start. The Russians who responded to your reconciliation post were very humble not to object to being called ⌠Muscovian.■ This term while not particularly insulting to the Russians carries with it an obvious tone of arrogance and disrespect for the Russians on the speaker▓s part.

I read many of your posts. You really present a high-brow profile. You are able to compose long, comprehensive texts and you write very often.
You argue presenting plenty of facts which you sometimes throw at your opponents like hard rocks. You try to intimidate them, accusing them of ignorance, poor education or evil intentions.
I was educated at highly reputed high school (Lyceum) in Warszawa. This respectable lyceum, set up in 1906, was named after the tragic Polish patriot Tadeusz Reytan. He defended the entrance to the Polish Senate Chamber in 1773 with his bare chest, trying to prevent the entrance of parliament members headed by the Tzar-paid traitor Adam Poninski. Poland was dying.

Just wondering, was the lyceum dedicated to Reytan in 1906 during tsarist rule? If that▓s the case, it just shows how liberal the Russian Empire was at the time. But I suspect the lyceum was renamed to honor Reytan much later.
Also, who was Reytan paid by? Any ideas?

Yes, I was educated at a time of communist rule in Poland. I had to learn Russian at my school, there was no way to avoid it. Our teachers did not instruct us to hate anyone or any other nation. Happily, my teacher of Russian was a good and committed woman, who took a lot of effort and arranged a wonderful trip to the Soviet Union for our class. We visited Kiev, Sochi and Moscow. I remember our friendly but sometimes hot discussions with Russians. Some of them were absolutely sure the Poland would turn into one of the Soviet republics in few years.
History was a subject of high priority at my school and some of my friends just loved to argue. I remember endless historic & political discussions with our teachers (some of them were old enough to be employed as teachers before WWII, when Poland was still a free country).

You should not forget that Poland was free for Poles but not for Russian-speakers. Numerous Russian newspapers and schools were closed and banned and Ukrainian was imposed on the people instead, sanctioned by the Polish authorities.

Inevitably, there were so called white spots in our historic knowledge. Some taboos just provoked us to disclose them fiercely thus bringing our poor teachers to despair!
Poland of the seventies was a kind of a communist maverick, with the absolutely unsuccessful economy, high expectations of people and some narrow margin of civil liberties including a "graciously" granted right for tourist travels to the West. Inhaling the Western air was at that time almost like taking drugs.
I also took my portion in the late seventies and I was like drunk, I must say. The access to the Polish Western Emigration literary references was a big shock.
I was never the same again. I often read those books like Skawinski his poetry (see my contribution "Power of the printed words" in the thread named "Ukraine-Poland"), all through the nights.
I was graduated from the technological university but I never ceased to be interested in history and politics.

Thank you for your compliments and criticism, and also thank you for sharing your past with me. I am not ready to discuss my story on this forum, by my life was quite different from yours. I do not worship the West and certainly do not get ⌠drunk■ breathing its air of democracy. I also don▓t worship the Soviet times, as you already noticed from my posts. However, I am also not blind to the problems in modern Russian (and Ukrainian) society, but choose not to rush into discussion of everything at once.

I get most of my info not from any schools either, but on my own time, browsing through old and new books and publications, internet research, talking with people and watching documentaries.

TLW, your basic approach is hardly acceptable for any citizen of numerous nations being subjected to the Soviet power in the past. You in no way agree to take any responsibility for the Soviet atrocities claiming that Russians suffered the most. Nice, I could embrace it. Then, you accuse Rzeczpospolita, her ruling class and her representatives of numerous wrongs aimed at the eradication of the national feelings of Russian-speaking population. You miss any reasonable proportions.

If you think your approach is better just because you assume you are talking to a Russian, I▓ll remind you of the fate of Russian immigrants in Poland between the wars. Other Russians were left to suffer under the Soviet regime much longer than Poles were. As is the custom not only on this forum but in general, when opposite sides argue, they like to point out the other▓s faults rather than their own. They also tend to ignore objectivity and the positive aspects, and always exalt their national figures to the level of national heroes, ignoring any atrocities attributed to them.

In any case, there are always those who dig out the truth and those who prefer only limited information.

Now, I would like to ask you where the capital of the brutal superpower was- on the moon? Who installed the foreign troops in Poland and have kept them for more than forty five years after WWII- brownies did? Who killed the Polish Army officers in Katyn and kept accusing Germans of this heinous crime for half a century- kiwis did?

Why do always presume that all Russians knew of the existence of Polish officers in Katyn? Do you think that the decision to execute them was some sort of collective referendum in the Soviet Union? Political leaders were not elected in the USSR, and decisions like that were made in secret and carried out without knowledge of it by the general public and many officials. Only the select few knew about it and carried the blame.

Pilsudsky▓s treatment of Russian (Soviet) soldiers was just as heinous. Them being Soviet doesn▓t make them somehow less human than Polish nationalists. They were only soldiers.

And those methods - who sent millions to the Gulag Archipelago Islands, who kicked out the whole nations from their birth-lands, who invaded Afghanistan - Romans did?
Do you really think that millions of Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Tatar etc. etc. patriots arriving in Siberia in XIXth/XXth century lived there by their own will?
It is a part of your national shame and you should share it with your countrymen but you are not going to.
Poles also committed the shameful acts but Poland and its people are strong enough to discuss it now. You lack this kind of courage while I would really consider it a courageous act. President Yeltsin's apology for the Katyn issue was expected and welcomed in Poland. Just a good pattern for you.
Please, get me right. I do not intend to have you on your knees begging for being forgiven. It is not a Canossa case. But look, you are on the forum on the newly independent state which suffered much under the Russian/Soviet rule. What are you doing here? You are crying over the Ukrainization of the Eastern Ukraine. I personally think that Ukraine could be a bilingual society but on the other hand every Ukrainian citizen including Russians and Poles should speak and write Ukrainian. Your historic back references are really overstated.

You know very well there were never ⌠millions of Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Tatar etc. etc. patriots■ sent to Siberia. So why are you lying? All of these groups put together would never amount to even one million. If you want a reasonable and objective discussion with me don▓t exaggerate meaningless clichИs in hopes of achieving acceptance for your political views.

Under Russian rule √ It remains a separate issue as to who suffered and for what reason, however people of the same ethnicity have also benefited as a result of policies from which their brothers suffered. The Ukrainians often turned against each other while today preferring to blame Russians.

Under Soviet rule √ There is absolutely no exception to the fact that a great deal more Russians suffered from Lenin▓s and Stalin▓s policies. You childishly view the issue by geography, if the capital was Moscow then the Russians are to blame, which is wrong. The Russians did not elect Stalin, they also did not elect Lenin, not to mention most other revolutionaries who were appointed by a small group of Russia-haters. Tens of millions of Russians were killed or silenced by the same communists who killed or deported Poles and Ukrainians, a few in comparison.

I raised the issue of Ukrainization of southern Russia, not eastern Ukraine. The land in question has always been part of Russia until 10 years ago, but Ukrainization did not start 10 years ago. It started in the 19th century and was directed at all Russian-speakers, Ukrainians, Rusyns and Russians.

No one should ever be forced to learn Ukrainian because it is an artificially invented language developed for political reasons from the 19th century specifically to be different from Russian. I▓ll post some material on the subject later.

I am sure you have much more facts at hand that you could use but for the reason unknown to me, you do not use them.

Let us confront just one issue┘.
You took up my proposal of the Polish-Russian reconciliation but what did you suggest? You requested the rebuilding of the "Russian Cathedral" in Warsaw, destroyed by the Poles, as a first step,. Mysteriously enough, you failed to present some facts. Now look Makcum , Hanja, Hannia, Irinka, StasUA and other Ukrainian disputants what TLW has in mind.
I am surely not after destroying any churches. It is not a civilized act.
The construction of the Orthodox church in Warsaw was initiated in 1894, when Warsaw, together with the eastern Poland was under the Tzarist rule and without any hope for independence. The church was erected on the elegant Saxony square, surrounded by beautiful baroque palaces. Curious about? Here you have a link showing the prewar photographs of Warsaw.
http://fotoinfo.pl/filstr20.htm
The church's architecture was as if taken directly from Moscow. What could it say to the Catholic Varsavians? You all would easily guess. It was nothing more like a vivid symbol of the imperial Russian power, like TLW's signature. TLW calls it a "Russian cathedral". I am curious what do people posting here think about it? For me, it is just an architectural monster, additionally famed by the enormous financial scandals accompanying the prolonged construction process. Try to imagine that sort of building in Prague or Budapest. It was pulled down, not destroyed, following the special decree of the Polish parliament in 1926.
Had its architecture been beautiful like that of Lwow's Orthodox churches, it would have surely been saved, maybe turned into the RC church. I admire Lwow's churches and I would be the first to vote for a beautiful Orthodox shrine in Warsaw even now. Unlike the Orthodox Church hierarchy in Russia, I am not afraid of any proselytism here, in Poland.

Thank you for the link. Those were most beautiful cathedrals.

The St. Michael Cathedral was torn down in 1920, and the St. Alexander Nevsky, as you say, in 1926.
From the pictures it is obvious that St. Michael▓s stood in a park and not out of sync with any Polish architecture. Architecture is a poor argument for the atrocious Polish deeds. They could have considered planting some trees around the St. Alexander church or remodeling some architectural facades to conform better to surrounding buildings, but they chose to raise it instead.

In Helsinki, Finland, several Russian churches still stand, even though they contrast to the city▓s classical architecture, much of which ironically was also built by the Russians. In Russia, many cities have classical palaces and buildings next to traditional Russian-Byzantine style churches. In Paris, Geneva, Nice, New York, Berlin, Hamburg, Sophia, Jerusalem, San Francisco, Tokyo, Tallin, Riga, Karlovy Vary, even Harbin and Shanghai, and many more cities, there are traditional Russian-style churches of striking beauty, mostly in the center of the city, and none were ever considered to be torn down for architectural-zoning reasons. The Poles (Warsoviane) stand out as cultural barbarians in this regard.

Let▓s also not forget the reconstruction of Hagia Sophia and other churches in Kiev. Under Polish and Lithuanian influence the churches▓ original Byzantine architecture was covered up to look like Polish Catholic churches.

The Russians also constructed or allowed the construction of a huge mosque and a huge Gothic Lutheran cathedral in the middle of classical St. Petersburg. The buildings still stand, even though they starkly contrast to the city▓s architecture, as does the famous national shrine of the Cathedral on the Blood. There is also a Gothic Catholic church in the center of the Medieval Russian town of Vladimir, not far from the historic Golden Gate. It▓s still there. A Catholic monastery was constructed in Kharkov (which was never part of Poland) in Romanesque style, I believe, and it still stands there.

We obtained next such "gift" from Stalin in 1953. Everyone arriving in Warsaw can see. I was a guide of a Japanese professor three weeks ago. He asked: what is that strange tower in the center of your town? A church?
I told him an old Varsavian joke in reply. Would you like to have the best possible view of Warsaw? So jump up this tower and enjoy. It is this only place in the city where this "masterpiece" is invisible!

Then, your aggressive statements concerning the Pope hurt me again and encouraged me to publish the TLWish-English dictionary(Politics tab, thread named "A key question +Pope's visit"). You surely watch TV from time to time and you know that no one commands millions of people in many places including Ukraine to gather in one place and wait patiently for hours to hear His words. This should prompt you to show a minimum respect for the aggression-free, respected personality. Instead, you are foaming with anger and insults. The dictionary was composed of your own words and it made you an enemy of your own words. You keep accusing StasUA of deleting your posts - do not you think he has his little revenge now, seeing that you really said too much rather than not enough?

The statement you tried to make in your ⌠dictionary■ post totally escapes me. Maybe you could try to rephrase yourself.

Did StasUA complain to you about my sig? If not, why does it make any difference to you? I don▓t go around repeating it, it▓s just automatically inserted in my sig as a reminder. Anyway, if StasUA mentions it again, then I▓ll think about it.

I heard of a university professor in prewar Lwow who asked his students for buying the edition of his own book for him because he wrote something really arrogant and tried to get rid out of his own statement(he was an outstanding expert on materials strength). TLW, do not be like this professor.

I am not sure what you mean. I haven▓t yet tried to take back any of my historical or political comments.

Well, I could also borrow plenty of facts taken from more or less objective "sources". I know some details of the British Ph.D. thesis devoted to the Polish-Soviet war of 1920. Maybe it could prove useful for our discussion on the Petliura-Pilsduski thread. I could refer to "The Commonwealth of Two Nations" by Pawel Jasienica, published in New York for facing your opinion on Rzeczpospolita. (He is surprisingly balanced in spite if the fact that first Polish edition was issued in People's Poland in 1967. A good reading for the reasonable Ukrainians, too. I can give more details at somebody's request).
I will do nothing like this. TLW, please refer to TuchajBay's stories in a thread named "Ukraine -Poland".
I consider TuchajBay a true leader of this thread. His views, based on his personal experience give me so much hope. I will surely show his contributions to my children with a comment: look kids, even the worst, the most inhuman political system is incapable of depriving some people of their basic, instinctive dignity.

I am not so sure about TuchaiBay.
In other threads you seem to follow and agree with people who hold the same point of view as most Ukrianian nationalists.

[Zbyszek]

TLW,
I am glad that you discuss more peacefully now.

My phrase "Muscovian friends" was taken direcly from a title of a Mickiewicz poem. I gave you information on this previously. I realize its present meaning can be negative.
Have a historic meaning in mind . Do not blame Mickiewicz.

My lyceum was a private school before WWI and Reytan name was given after WWI. No time for writing more now. Sorry, it is not a case of the liberal Tzarist policy.

We have two Orthodox churches in Warszawa. Your idea of rebuilding the churches which had been pulled down makes no sense now. It would only stir up unnecessary hostility against Russians. Be more practical, please. If you want to have friends, do not test their tolerance so deeply.

I do not form any "coalitions" or "parties"on this forum. I identify myself with some, not all statements of some people.

[Halina]

Originally posted by The_Last_Word

Must have been a real effort for you to read my ⌠boring■ posts and look at the Russian imperial coat of arms. That▓s probably what gave you the idea that Stalin is my ⌠hero.■ But that▓s ok, I can forgive.

Hello Last Word !

No, Sweetie Pie. It was a pleasure to read your posts & I looked at your imperial coat of arms with amusement. I had the same feeling when I watched the skeleton of a dinosaur in the Natural History Museum in London. You are a history, Last Word !
.

Right, any battle against the Russians resulting in victory is always ⌠miraculous and historic.■ It is also a victory against overwhelming numbers of Russians and unbelievable odds and troubles.
Way to give yourself the extra credit.

True, Sweetheart ! Very true, indeed. Any successful attempt to squash the Red Army is a reason to be proud and give ourselves extra credit. If you ask an old Polish veteran in London: Who do you think the Poles should have beaten first: Germans, or Russian bolsheviks, the answer would be:'First business, then pleasure !'. ( and I am sure many Checks, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Germans, Finns, Lithuanians, Latvians & Belorussians & Chechens & Jugoslavs would unfortunately share the view, my poor soul.

[/QUOTE]
It▓s just your way of saying you personally hate the Russians and their country.

I, personally, love Achmatova & Osip Mandelstam & Dostoyevski & Pushkin. They have saved what has reamined after your 'civilisation'.

You mean the famine in Russia that included a small part of the historic Ukraine.
There are just as many if not more atrocities committed by the same Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, etc. You just don▓t read about them.

Small part of historic Ukraine ?
Oh, my poor little Scone. Here is a description of a witness for you:

'A quarter of the rural population, men women & children, lay dead or dying in a great stretch of territory with some forty million inhabitants, like one vast Belsen. The rest,in various stages of debiliation had no strenght to bury their families, or neighbours (as at Belsen)'
In 1932-3, as part of the Soviet collectivization campaign, the Stalinist regime had unleashed a man-made terror famine in Ukraine & the neighbouring Cossack lands. All food stocks were forcibly requisitioned; a military cordon prevented all supplies from entering; and the people were left to die. the aim was TO KILL UKRAINIAN NATIONHOOD (...). The death toll reached some 7 million(..)'

There's also a description of the Ukrainian children.
Here we go Last Word;

' Have you ever seen the newspaper photos of the children in German camps? they were just like that; their heads like heavy balls on thin little necks, like storks.... and the whole skeleton stretched over with skin like yellow gauze...'

Was that the small part of historic Ukraine you've been talking about, Love?
And, if Soviet people were starved to death, too that only makes you SOVIETS look like total morons. Why would anyone want to kill their own children ? But, that must be because Russia is not like Western civilisations - as you've put it !

Good night Last Word & sleep well, Scone !
XXXXXX

[/B]

[makcum]

love - so they get hate instead.
Others implied they would like Russia more if it divided into several states, the Russians don't wnat that, so they are hated. Some Ukrainians, for example, hate Russia because they feel insecure occupying historic Russian land where most people speak Russian, so they hate Russia. They furhtermore wrongfully believe that Ukraine was Russified where in reality it was Russian-speaking before it became Ukrainian, and so they hate Russia even more.

Russia Isn't even a Slavic word and you talk about Ukraine being Russian speaking, LOL. How is Ukraine ⌠Russian■ when Russia isn▓t even a race, just a Scandinavian word. ⌠Russians■ are just East Slavs who lived in the north who were taught culture by the masters in Kyiv. This historic BS is getting real old, I used to think you were really smart then in every post you just revolve around the same thesis and it is obvious you regurgitate information from a book without thinking independently.