Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

I never saw before as user replies to my post via editing his previous post and rewriting it completely, changing the sense. It's the new way of discussion, how about the paten?

Yep, those Russians are strange guys.

Polishchuk is not Ukrainian in social sense because he is excommunicated by Ukrainian Canadian community. And the only reason is he is well-paid Kremlin agent.

This is supported in Ukraine, btw. Note in article you provided Kremlin hireling Polishchuk speaks Russian. It's the language of his masters and customers, actually.

1.Was your sense to offend me?
2. Russians? (btw I would not be offended if someone called me a Russian or Ukrainian with good intention in mind).
3. Polishchuk is not Ukrainianin in YOUR sense. His mother tongue is Ukrainian, though. And suggestion that he is a Kremlin agent sounds like a slander. Not nice, Max.
4. And what's wrong with him speaking Russian ? (and maybe the interview was just translated to Russian). Russian is just one of languages circulating in Ukraine and it has not been banned yet as far as I know.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Well OK, I will not comment your sobs, you'd better watch your own language.

So you support the Polishchuk. Very well. From Polishchuk's interview:

"When I knocked in Canada with unheard-of hate to Polish and Russian nations, I wasn't able to accept this fact and so I decided to research the origins of this inconceivable phenomenon."

He means the Canadian Ukrainians. But where is the truth here? Let's say Kathy, the good angel of this board, is Canadian Ukrainian. Did she ever show her "hate and contempt" to Poles and Russians? No she tried to be gentle even to outstanding morons.

So how could Polishchuk say such rot about Canadian Ukrainians? That's brutal slander. Well-paid slander, I would say.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

So how could Polishchuk say such rot about Canadian Ukrainians? That's brutal slander. Well-paid slander, I would say.

You just revealed your major problem, Max. In your numerous posts you treat Ukrainians as homogeneous society. If anoyone thinks different than you do, he must be a traitor or well-paid agent. That's not true. They differ much.
I personally attended one Polishchuk's lecture in Warsaw. His logic is so different from yours. He declared he is Ukrainian of course and he tried to convince the Polish audience that the UPA murders of Ukrainians and Poles were numerous in number but they were carried out by limited number of perpetrators and they were predomianantly ignited by very young males recruited from the Sluzba Bezpieky UPA. He said it would not be honest to accuse the whole Ukrainian nation terrorized by UPA.
And now you, with your allegation as to "patriotic" organization of wide national support challnge his vision of course. I do not trust you I must say. All my experience, all readings and personal accounts say the opposite.
I do not say every UPA soldier was a scoundrel. I just claim that given extremely difficult situation of Ukrainians during WWII, they made historic error by trying to flirt with Hitler. Only when Bandera understood his awkward situation he changed his strategy and found another enemy. Ukrainians accused of collaboration with the Soviets, real or would be, became is primary enemy and it was really terrible. Poles became next would be enemy but Poles were so intimidated, deprived of their military structures and leaders who stayed in the Gulags that they just could not even fight effectively. Many people told me that level of hate against Poles in Wolyn at that time was a shocking surprise. The OUN propaganda gave poisonous late fruit.
Again, why do you use a term "well-paid slander"? You do it because you do not like Polishchuk's version. And it is differs from your one so much that you can not explain it. If you failed to explain, you would find the easiest possible Judas explanation.
So please accept the fact that Ukrainians, like Poles, are much polarised.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Note to administration:

Dear mods and admin, is it possible to remove this thread from Business forum to History forum? I think this is the most inappropriate place for discussion about ethnic conflicts on Western Ukraine in 40ties of 20th century. User MichaelB_Pl likes to stir up long historic discussions in the most unsuitable places as political forums or business forums.

But I really doubt the people who are interested in commerce and business information connected with Ukraine want to read this avalanche of hostile accusations. This discredits the forum.

Maybe it will be better to move this long historic scandal to History forum where it’s just OK and rename it somehow correctly, for example, “The battle around OUN/UPA” or “Angry beavers in action”?

As participant of the discussion I’m completely for.

[Zbyszek]

Many thanks to a moderator for satisfying a wish of mine and Max.

I have previously expressed this on page 6 of our discussion.
This discussion became historical instead of business-like. We are in wrong category now.

I would like to point out that the UPA topic has been raised many times before.

This is your Ukrainian nationalism

Ukrainians and Poles finalize draft joint statement on massacres in Volyn

Ukrainska Povstanska Armiya

Ukraine nationalism

Litopy's UPA

Apologies for grievances?

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

I would like to point out that the UPA topic has been raised many times before.

I also a bit wonder why these old gone events caused such big waves now... it seems the basic points in this story were already known.

However, I think the rehabilitation of OUN/UPA stressed the situation a bit... there was big gap between diasporal point of view which pictured UPA as heroes and official Ukrainian history which first considered UPA as fascists (Soviet version), then as nationalist with questionable status and finally as national heroes.

Important caution: this process was coming accordingly to disclassification of KGB/SBU archives which allowed to see the truth beyong the lie.

I'm really glad the diasporal point of view and Ukrainian point of view are finally absolutelly identical. That's the great moment.