Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

Listen to the voice of your competent Ukrainian specialists

I really would like to read that document but the link is broke. Instead I suggest two other:

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army

Ukraine-Polish relations of the time:

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/oun/11.pdf

I still repeat it’s already not latest information about events (it’s dated around 1997). Since January 2008 SBU conducts “public historic hearings” with broad participation of historians, member of working group and journalists and many things were already revised.

The latest information is on SBU site but I think there is not sense to give links on their site here. But there is another exit. Come to Google and enter keyword “УПА СБУ” and you will find many links including the original SBU site with reports about hearings and results. Language will be Ukrainian, of course.

But even if we analyze this version of Histrory Insitute for 1997, we see:

Creation of UPA was reaction of Ukrainian people on Polish interventions since 1918 and sovietization of 1939-1941 so as I suggested before the primary targets of UPA were Polish and Soviet military forces.

Majority of Poles and Ukrainians on Western Ukraine cooperated with German occupants but relations between Poles and Ukrainians were strained and hostile. Occupants created everywhere “national” auxiliary police. So was on Ukrainian Volyn. But when they knew Ukrainian auxiliary police on Volyn was a part of OUN (B) conspiracy net, they disarmed them and hired Poles to Volyn auxiliary police.

This began mass repression of Poles against Ukrainians, ethnic humiliation, murders, burn of villages etc.

OUN made responsible Poles for this aggravating. In ultimatum of 18 May 1943, Dmitro Klyachkovsky, current OUN leader, writes to Poles: “You help Germans with their gangsters work. You are the blind tool in hands of Germans, which is being used against us. But remember if Polish community will not influence those ones who came into administration, police and other institutions to leave them, the anger of Ukrainian people will be directed against Poles who live on Ukrainian lands. Every our burnt village, every Ukrainian murdered because of your fault will be revenged.”

But Poles didn’t leave the Volun administration and the auxiliary police so repressions against the Ukrainians continued.

At fall 1942-spring 1943 this situation was used by Soviet partisans which appeared in Volun and began activity. These were detachments of Kovpak, Saburov, Fedorov and NKVD detachments of colonel Medvedev. They mobilized in own armies at least 5 000 of Poles (Polis historian R.Torzecki)

Volyn events began in April-May 1943 when UPA’s First Group attacked 7 Polish colonies which accordingly to UPA reports “actively collaborated with fascists and bolsheviks”.

In May-June of 1943 Polish auxiliary police together with German fascists killed the 1/4 of Ukrainian population of Ludvigpolsky region on Rivnenshina, including elderly, women and kids.

In July 1943 UPA published the appeals in Polish villages: “For 48 hors out the BUG or Syan or death”. The Polish underground gave order to Poles: ”Sit on places because Poland will lose the Volyn otherwise.”

11 of July 1943 UPA attacked the 167 villages, the peasants armed with scythes and axes were coming together with soldiers.

In fall of 1943 on the entire the area of General governorship except the Halych Polish underground conducted mass murders of Germans and Ukrainians, accordingly to order of commandant of Armia Krajowa T. Komorovsky. In Hrebushevsky and Tomashivsky regions Poles burnt till June 1944 150 Ukrainian villages and murdered 15 000 of Ukrainians.

Scientist support: the basis of all Ukrainian-Polish conflicts of WW II period is land, the biggest value of the time. Let’s don’t forget the social tension on Volyn was created by all governments of Second Rech Pospolita, quite intentionally and consciously. The religious and ethnic humiliation of Ukrainians on “eastern lands” was conducted not only by extremists and chauvinists, it was regular politics of local administrations supported by central government.

The sides of Volyn conflict were:

1) Polis auxiliary police and later un-secreted AK detachments (they were in underground at the beginning).

2) OUN (B), OUN (M), Borovets-Bulba detachments.

German administration and Soviet partisans were not implicated in conflict and played role of “external viewer”.

I invite everyone interested in this discussion to research this information (it stands for 1997) and to make own outcomes. They are very obvious though.

My own position is following: it’s perfectly clear the conflict was provoked by Poles, because of ethnical repressions and collaboration with fascists and soviets. UPA tried to stop repressions of Polish administration auxiliary police and hit out pro-fascist and pro-soviet Polish powers from Volyn.

Besides, Ukrainian peasants took the very active participation in this conflict; this was struggle for precious lands and desire of immediate revenge for hundreds of years of ethnic humiliation.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

I really would like to read that document but the link is broke. Instead I suggest two other:

Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army

Ukraine-Polish relations of the time:

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/oun/11.pdf

My own position is following: it’s perfectly clear the conflict was provoked by Poles, because of ethnical repressions and collaboration with fascists and soviets. UPA tried to stop repressions of Polish administration auxiliary police and hit out pro-fascist and pro-soviet Polish powers from Volyn.

Besides, Ukrainian peasants took the very active participation in this conflict; this was struggle for precious lands and desire of immediate revenge for hundreds of years of ethnic humiliation.

My comment will be short this time:

1. Yes, the source you given is Ukrainian and thus not much valuable for this forum. Please use English language sources, also because of expected neutrality.
Why have not you mentioned Wiktor Polishchuk's broad material in Ukrainian then, just for good balance? Not fair Max, not fair. Polishchuk is available in English, Polish and UKRAINIAN. His analysis is broad and goes back to Dontsov's theory.

2. Polish share in Volhynia accounted only for 16 % of the whole population. Poles were statistically weak, poor, surrounded by hostile neighbours. In Galicia, situation was different.
Polish underground army never gave any order encouraging collaboration with the Germans unlike in the case of the UPA. Cases of collaboration were individual, rare and absolutely against the AK orders. Their exploitation and justification of inhuman aggression on such base = cooking new history books.

3. Why did the uneducated peasants using axes, knives, and poles remember specifically hundred years of ethnic humiliation? Polish counterparts were predominantly peasants as well living there for centuries. It is psychological lie smelling foul.

[bm-21Lemko]

Lemko Company of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (Lemkivska sotnia UPA). A military unit of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) organized in October 1945 in Lisko county, Lemko region. Composed mostly of local peasants with no military training, it was assigned to Captain V. Mizerny's (nom de guerre: Ren) battalion and given the code names 95a and Udarnyk 5. Its zone of operations was the 26th Tactical Sector of the UPA. Under Lt Stepan Stebelsky's (Khrin's) command, the company expanded quickly, and by the spring of 1946 it had six platoons and approx 260 men. In April 1946 two of the platoons were detached to form the company Udarnyk 8. The Lemko Company became widely known as an active fighting force. In the first 18 months it fought more than 100 engagements with Polish army or police units. The most famous of them was its successful ambush on 28 March 1947 of Gen K. Świerczewski, Poland's deputy defense minister. In April–June 1947 the company suffered severe losses in almost continuous combat with Polish units, which were conducting Operation Wisła, and on 29 June it was forced to retreat into the USSR. After several weeks of skirmishes with NKVD border guards, it was strengthened with soldiers from the demobilized Udarnyk 8 and reorganized into two platoons. On 15 August 1947 it was placed under Lt Stakh's command and sent into western Drohobych oblast. On 10 September 1948 it was demobilized, and its soldiers were assigned to the armed underground.

Lemko Company of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army

Ultimately my family's village was destroyed during operation Wisla and then they were sent to Soviet Ukraine.

My great great grandfather fought in a village defence group in 1946, and had been trained by the Austro-hungarian army when he served on the Eastern Front in WWI.

[Zbyszek]

Hi Lemko, I am sure you know that new non-communist Polish Gov't apologized for the operation Wisla 1947. It was personally expressed by our president Aleksander Kwasniewski around the year 2000. I have no time to go deeper into the subject but read Max's contribution please - no apology afoot. Nothing bad happened, UPA was just patriotic force, peasants responed to centuries of foreign occupation. No doubt, no remorse.
The UPA 2.0 (I mean Bieszczady after 1945) was much different story than UPA 1.0 (I mean Wolyn 1943).
I can take my personal national share of shame for resettling Lemkos and other Ukrainians from their homeland in spite of the fact that it was orchestrated by newly housed Polish communist pro-Moscow gov't.
I expect some deeper thought about UPA 1943 rage though. Instead, I obtained half-baked biased explanations from Max. Disappointing.

(I have no clue how to edit the title of my post and replace 'give' with 'given')

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

Yes, the source you given is Ukrainian and thus not much valuable for this forum. Please use English language sources, also because of expected neutrality.

Oh I bet this is mentioned “cognitive dissonance”.

First of all, you suggested this source for consideration as trustworthy one and it really is. So we have to stick with it.

What you read is not version of any “independent” historian, these are pages of Institute of Ukraine History, National Science Academy of Ukraine. And book you read contains outcomes of governmental commission for research of OUN/UPA activity, created in 1997. The full name of book is

“Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army. The specialized outcomes of historians' working group of governmental commission for research of OUN/UPA activity.”

Second, I translated 11 pdf document which stands for 11 chapter of the book, “Ukraine–Poland Withstanding”, and I translated it very correctly. The English text you read is not my own imagination but short excerpt from this chapters, word-to-word, except my own outcomes which are just short summary.

I call all the Ukraine-speaking users check my translation and examine how much exactly it was made.

So what we read is OFFICIAL governmental version, the last instance truth.

Now about your objections… Yes, Polish population on Volyn was not numerous but actively collaborated with Nazi regime and consisted majority in auxiliary police and administration. They helped Germans with cruelest repression against Ukrainians so that was basis for later conflict. The quote from Dmitro Klyachkovsky ultimatum supports that, he blames Poles for active participation in Nazi administration and repressions.

Polish auxiliary police which was part of Nazi administration and AK fought together against OUN, chip-to-chip, so I hardly can believe they were not cooperated very well. This actually rises the question about appearance of AK on Volyn at all. You obviously think they appeared after the conflict but this is wrong version…

No any military detachments could transit from Poland to Ukraine on the area totally controlled by Wehrmacht, because Germans watched for Soviet partisans. AK is also named “earth army” because its soldiers were hidden in cellars. AK began the “cellar occupation” of Volyn much earlier, when Polish auxiliary police ruled there. I really doubt if it could go behind the auxiliary police back. Obviously, the “underground” (AK soldiers sitting in cellars) and auxiliary police were tightly connected and later fought together against OUN detachments.

I really can’t figure out what you mean in your third question. Why did the uneducated peasants using axes? The axe is regular farmer’s instrument and it may be used as weapon as well.

Were Polish counterparts predominantly peasants? They were and reason for conflict was they got from Polish administration lands taken away from Ukrainian peasants.

Why do Ukrainian peasants remember the year of ethnic humiliation? As comes from reference, all governments of Second Rech Pospolita conducted humiliating ethnic and religious politics against Ukrainians living on “eastern lands” on regular basis.

Hey, bm-21Lemko, welcome on the board!

Originally Posted by bm-21Lemko

In the first 18 months it fought more than 100 engagements with Polish army or police units. The most famous of them was its successful ambush on 28 March 1947 of Gen K. Świerczewski, Poland's deputy defense minister.

So this is evidence which supports official version of Institute of Ukraine History.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

....
I call all the Ukraine-speaking users check my translation and examine how much exactly it was made.

So what we read is OFFICIAL governmental version, the last instance truth.

...
So this is evidence which supports official version of Institute of Ukraine History.

God save us from 'OFFICIAL governmental' history versions.
DO you really have them in your country MAX?
When the governments meddle in history, people should be EXTREMELY distrustul. We in Poland are particularly sensitive about it never mind the government type.
The scientists should stay as far as possible from their governments. Now I am really inclined to hand you a yellow card.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Majority of Poles and Ukrainians on Western Ukraine cooperated with German occupants but relations between Poles and Ukrainians were strained and hostile. Occupants created everywhere “national” auxiliary police. So was on Ukrainian Volyn. But when they knew Ukrainian auxiliary police on Volyn was a part of OUN (B) conspiracy net, they disarmed them and hired Poles to Volyn auxiliary police.

This began mass repression of Poles against Ukrainians, ethnic humiliation, murders, burn of villages etc.

What you forgot to add is that:

1) The Ukrainian auxiliary police was murdering Poles and Jews before
the Ukrainian policemen got replaced by Poles.

2) Many of Ukrainian policemen from #1 became UPA soldiers.

If you want to say that the mass murder of Polish civilians done by UPA is somehow justified because of the actions of Polish policemen in German service, then are you applying the same logic to justifying the mass murder of Ukrainian civilians done by AK local units *AND* the Polish policemen in German service?

(remember that the Ukrainian policemen murdered Poles before they got replaced by Polish policemen)

OUN made responsible Poles for this aggravating.

Forgetting that within UPA's ranks, there were Ukrainians whose actions would make all Ukrainians "responsible", if the same criteria would be applied.

But remember if Polish community will not influence those ones who came into administration, police and other institutions to leave them, the anger of Ukrainian people will be directed against Poles who live on Ukrainian lands. Every our burnt village, every Ukrainian murdered because of your fault will be revenged.”

<- and this is extremely consisent with that what I (and Zbyszek) was saying all along - that UPA conducted a planned, organised action of mass murder and ethnic cleansing against the Poles.

Volyn events began in April-May 1943 when UPA’s First Group attacked 7 Polish colonies which accordingly to UPA reports “actively collaborated with fascists and bolsheviks”.

1. "Colonies" or simply "villages"?

2. If it looked like a typical UPA attack vs civilians, then women and children were not spared - did the children colaborate with fascists and bolsheviks also?

In May-June of 1943 Polish auxiliary police together with German fascists killed the 1/4 of Ukrainian population of Ludvigpolsky region on Rivnenshina, including elderly, women and kids.

Quite obviously, the Polish auxiliary police in German service commited acts similiar to those of UPA, which is actually very logical, considering that within UPA ranks, there were many Ukrainian ex-policemen, who previously murdered Poles and Jews while in German service.

In July 1943 UPA published the appeals in Polish villages: “For 48 hors out the BUG or Syan or death”.

It's interesting that earlier in this thread, I've posted a similiar terroristic threat, directed at a Polish individual - and you objected to it's authenticity - but now, you believe something just because it's an Ukrainian source - which shows how much you are lacking in objectivity.

Most likely, if you were Russian, you would never believe in the Soviet responsibility for Katyn or the Great Famine.

The Polish underground gave order to Poles: ”Sit on places because Poland will lose the Volyn otherwise.”

Besides that, these poor peasants had nowhere to go - as Poland was under German occupation.

11 of July 1943 UPA attacked the 167 villages, the peasants armed with scythes and axes were coming together with soldiers.

I'm very happy, because you got over the "it was not UPA, just the peasants"
delusion.

In fall of 1943 on the entire the area of General governorship except the Halych Polish underground conducted mass murders of Germans and Ukrainians, accordingly to order of commandant of Armia Krajowa T. Komorovsky. In Hrebushevsky and Tomashivsky regions Poles burnt till June 1944 150 Ukrainian villages and murdered 15 000 of Ukrainians.

I agree, though the numbers seem inflated.

Scientist support: the basis of all Ukrainian-Polish conflicts of WW II period is land, the biggest value of the time. Let’s don’t forget the social tension on Volyn was created by all governments of Second Rech Pospolita, quite intentionally and consciously.

Reading the UPA message you have posted in that post, I see mention of REVENGE , not social tensions related to land.

The sides of Volyn conflict were:

1) Polis auxiliary police and later un-secreted AK detachments (they were in underground at the beginning).

2) OUN (B), OUN (M), Borovets-Bulba detachments.

Not exactly so - Borovets-Bulba opposed OUN(B)'s stance toward the Poles, he accused them of very similiar things that Poles today do.
Bulba-Borovets wrote:


"...instead of conducting actions in keeping with the agreed-upon course, military units of the OUN-B began in horrid manner to exterminate Polish civilians as well as other minorities... Can a truly revolutionary statesman submit himself to leadership of party which begins the construction of a nation with extremination of national minorities and the mindless burning of buildings? Ukraine has more formidable enemies than the Poles... What are you fighting for? For Ukraine, or for your OUN? For Ukrainian State, or for dictatorship in that state? For the Ukrainian people, or for your party?" "

Notce that the image of OUN(B)/UPA(B) visible in this letter is very consistent with the image portrayed by Poles - image of hate-filled, genocidal extremists.

My own position is following: it’s perfectly clear the conflict was provoked by Poles, because of ethnical repressions and collaboration with fascists and soviets.

What about the Ukrainian collaboration with fascists and the murders of Poles and Jews done by Ukrainian policemen in German service?

UPA tried to stop repressions of Polish administration auxiliary police and hit out pro-fascist and pro-soviet Polish powers from Volyn.

And how did the mass murder of Polish civilians was supposed to solve that? Obviously, that only would (and did) make the Polish policemen *AND* AK soldiers take revenge upon Ukrainians.

Besides, Ukrainian peasants took the very active participation in this conflict; this was struggle for precious lands and desire of immediate revenge for hundreds of years of ethnic humiliation.

The murdered Poles were simple peasants who have lived next to their Ukrainian neighbours side-by-side for centuries - the "priviliged" Polish caste was already mostly gone, taken away by the NKVD.

Actually, in many tales of the Polish survivors, it were exactly their Ukrainian neigbours who saved them from the UPA.


Michael