Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

The first part of your post is just senseless rhetoric and it doesn’t suppose any clear answers. Obviously you try to hide your argumentation gaps in avalanche of empty questions. So I will pick out two main points:

1) Earlier you accused me I have too “idealized image of Russia” however your sudden defense of Russian-speaking minorities shows you anti-Russian position is same insincere as your pro-Russian one. It’s obviously you are too weak and inconsistent person to join the theory with practice in this point.

Therefore I have no reasons to believe either your anti-Russian or pro-Russian views and take them seriously.

Most likely I deal with any kind of Polish chauvinist who uses colors as situational tool, having the humiliation as final aim.

2) You are mixing the idea of “diaspora” and “overall population”. The fact there are foreign diasporas in city doesn’t mean equity sign with it’s overall population. There many diasporas in Odessa and in all other cities but problems and false begins when local chauvinists try to create artificial Russian identity and self-realization for people who have not any relation to Russian ethnicity at all except speaking the language which is more post-soviet trait then ethnical.

We talk about so called “denationalized” part here. And because this is area of Ukraine, they are Ukrainian citizens and official language is Ukrainian, there is necessity to move this culture on right rails and to not feed wrong identities.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Basically, you have weak economy, a divided society and a much stronger, rather imperialistic neighbour whom you are dependant on for oil - not a very good position.

You are completely wrong with it. Ukrainian economy is much stronger then Polish one because we have powerful heavy industry (which belongs to Ukrainians btw, not to foreigners as in Poland) and also high technologies (space etc) are developed, so this core makes us much stronger then Poland which already belongs to “rich boys from EU” but not for humble citizens as you.

As about “divided society” so I consider this as natural Ukrainian pluralism and surefire democratic traits. We are even not federal republic so any dissolutions in reality are not possible, you’ll die waiting for that.

Another thing, taking the permanency aside and concentrating on the present borders of Ukraine, do you realise that the present Ukrainian state is a de facto imperialistic state, in regard to Russian-speakers living on lands which cannot be considered historically Ukrainian?

I realize you as deeply uneducated person under mask of intellectual but this everything is pseudo – you godlessly lump completely different ideas together. There is not any “imperialism” (imperialism stands for aggressive external policy) with providing the Ukrainian citizens the right to use Ukrainian language.

Another of your brutal childish mistakes is “oil dependence”. Ukraine and Russia pump to Europe both gas and oils but these are different transport systems. We don’t use much oil and plus we have direct delivery from some Middle East partners.

So we have a kind of gas dependence but prices for Ukraine are so low that consist just 30% from world level. Therefore such dependence is economically more profitable then any independence.

I think it's a very good article, because we at least have some kind of specific accusation made. (true accusation, AFAIK)

OK so let’s say you covered the topic. However, I’m still sure the political repressions in Poland were much crueler… and overall atmosphere was (and still is) “nationalistic” as stated by Guardian. With no doubts you hide the most essential details.

It’s obviously though level of democracy in Poland doesn’t suit European standards if any at all.

Actually, it depends on on the given country - France and Germany would like to impose their views on other countries and are angry simply because Poland considers itself an equal and will not simply follow orders.

I’m often guest in EU so I can explain you as people see it from the outside. Poland is considered as Trojan horse aimed to destroy the EU from inside.

First it was referred to US but now majority thinks it’s Trojan horse by itself, only because of antisocial behavior of Poles. This behavior will be surely antisocial in any given society and this is non-European trait and sign of deep cultural degradation of Polish nation.

Interesting, EU accepted with that wave many new members as Baltic states, Hungary, Czechs, Slovakia etc, but only Poland consists the problem.

Other nations somehow found the common denominator with Brussels but it hasn’t happen in case with Poland with its paranoiac atmosphere. That’s thought provoking…

It's the "troublemaker" country of Poland which supports Ukraine's entry to EU and NATO, while the "decent" countries like France and Germany oppose at least the second thing.

It's the "decent" country of Germany which wants to build the Baltic oil pipeline, avoiding Ukraine and Poland, and giving Russia more opportunity to apply "oil blackmail".

The word “troublemaker” is perfect and suits you country well, though it is referred to Polish-EU relations, not to Polish-Ukrainian. So I don’t understand why you use it in this context. Of course, Poland support Ukrainian EU-NATO integration but many other newcomers do as Baltic states, all the former Warsaw agreement, etc… so such position is not exception.

It’s not the bill we need to pay to anyone.

In reality decisions are made by France-Germany alliance, I can’t say they don’t want to see the Ukraine in these structures but there are many internal and external factors which need to be carefully considered by both sides, and I agree we need not hurry here.

It’s better to be good firm friend of EU outside, then bitter enemy inside.

As about so called “northern flow” and “southern flow” of Russian gas (not oil, exactly gas, this is another evidence of incompetence) so there are such projects but the currently are on the paper and will become the reality not soon… besides their transport ability altogether will be lesser then abilities of Ukrainian transport system so Russia never will throw us out the business.

As about Poland so it is just admission point and not any full-right partner in this scheme.

I'm really curious about that - which documents they've found to be forgery, why and how.

I don’t remember, it was plot in analytic TV program so I remember just overall outcomes.

Can you tell me more about what these Ukrainian "Orange" historians claim about that?

Here you try to primitively distort the things… historians who researched the theme are not “Orange”, they have not any political belonging at all. SBU created the working group an invited in prominent scientists and specialists from different Universities and regions. So they are absolutely objective ones, with no political setting at all.

The outcomes on the whole are:

1) UPA never was fascist’s organization, they can be considered as patriotic army which struggled for independence of Ukraine in hard times against totalitarian regimes. Their ideology as maximum can be described as nationalism but only deeply uneducated person may mix fascism and nationalism – btw, most Poles and Russian do.

2) UPA acted in all the Ukraine including East and South, Donbass and Odessa.

3) Its primary target was Soviets so at the beginning they had balance with Germany but later they were repressed by fascists as political enemies.

4) They also prevented attempts of Polish occupation (the Volynn incident is not massacre in reality, it was attempt of military occupation) and Romanian one.

5) All the war crimes of UPA on the territory of Ukraine were forged and were turned into tool of soviet propaganda.

What possible motive would the AK have in reporting falsehood to their superiors?

What are those AK reports in essence?

I meet you in the bar, we argue if you are Polish chauvinist pig or not, temperature rises, I beat out your teeth, you go home, take paper sheet, take pen and write:

“Report. Highlander was in bar today and thrashed all the bar. Besides, he owes me a million of dollars. Signature, date.”

Next day you go to the street and show everyone your “credible, extended” evidence of my "sins".

Only I saw are the photographs of yellow papers with some Polish text where nothing is clear and you need to look “between the lines”. What are criteria of trustworthy in this case?

Were these documents analyzed by competent Ukrainian specialists so they supported the originality? Weren’t they forged later, in 70th, for example? Are there chances AK, the band of cranky Polish murderers, didn’t distorted the things right there, in 1943?

So this every thing is like a card house – just little wind and everything falls.

I saw articles but they use AK report as source so it’s like building the first floor when the basement is rotten. The outcomes are not correct because they go from forged politically biased sources.

Big bright medal was butchering women and children?

No, but for resistance the AK which tried to occupy the Volyn lands.

So which sources are trustworthy in your opinion?

Only those which are contained in SBY archives and was researched and those Polish sources which were researched and supported by competent Ukrainian specialists.

Many Ukrainians husbands/wives were forced to murder their spouses - hardly a revenge, I think.

This is perfect example of blind chauvinistic propaganda when bold hasty lie is mixed with verisimilar suggestions – with hope reader will eat this all together.

How could you prove that, except another AK report?

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

...
1) UPA never was fascist’s organization, they can be considered as patriotic army which struggled for independence of Ukraine in hard times against totalitarian regimes. Their ideology as maximum can be described as nationalism but only deeply uneducated person may mix fascism and nationalism – btw, most Poles and Russian do.
...
5) All the war crimes of UPA on the territory of Ukraine were forged and were turned into tool of soviet propaganda.
...

Oh Max, Max tell me who are you going to indoctrinate?
Your simplification is clearly seen thus you act against yourself.

Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please be so kind and read EVERY line of the above text. Also, try to analyze the given references (in numerous languages).
Tell me why was the UPA never admitted into the world association of war veteran organizations. What about the Jewish grievance against the UPA?
And it seems to me you were more objective before. Too bad.

The UPA was a TERRORIST organization because it was not voluntary. Many were brutally killed just because of dodging the draft. Fight for freedom should never start with terror on the inside.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Earlier you accused me I have too “idealized image of Russia” however your sudden defense of Russian-speaking minorities shows you anti-Russian position is same insincere as your pro-Russian one. It’s obviously you are too weak and inconsistent person to join the theory with practice in this point.

Therefore I have no reasons to believe either your anti-Russian or pro-Russian views and take them seriously.

So in your opinion, one should be either anti-Russian in all kinds of cases, or pro-Russian in all kinds of cases?

Sorry, but I'm no fanatic and I do understand that the same nation might be wrong in some cases, while being right in others.

Most likely I deal with any kind of Polish chauvinist who uses colors as situational tool, having the humiliation as final aim.

Well, I think I do see what you mean by "humiliation", but I see it differently - you seem to have some kind of partially idealised image of Ukraine and obviously, information inconsistent with that image causes you to feel "humilitated".

BTW it's called "cognitive dissonance", and that's what makes people angry and emotionally unbalanced when you claim they are wrong.

We talk about so called “denationalized” part here. And because this is area of Ukraine, they are Ukrainian citizens and official language is Ukrainian, there is necessity to move this culture on right rails and to not feed wrong identities.

Ok, so what's the essential difference between the position in the above sentence, and the position of Polish authorities toward Ukrainians during the 20s and 30s?

You are completely wrong with it. Ukrainian economy is much stronger then Polish one because we have powerful heavy industry (which belongs to Ukrainians btw, not to foreigners as in Poland) and also high technologies (space etc) are developed, so this core makes us much stronger then Poland which already belongs to “rich boys from EU” but not for humble citizens as you.

For now, Ukraine is a much poorer country than EITHER Poland or Russia.
Below are the "per capita" economical ratings of Ukraine, Poland and Russia.

Ukraine:

Nominal GDP: $2,852
PPP GDP: $8,624

Poland:

Nominal GDP: $10,858
PPP GDP: $16,598

Russia:

Nominal GDP: $9,056
PPP GDP: $14,600

As about “divided society” so I consider this as natural Ukrainian pluralism and surefire democratic traits.

1. "natural Ukrainian pluralism" - very curious statement, considering that mass murders of Poles and Jews done by Ukrainians - and I'm not speaking only about WWII.

2. So how is the "pluralism" and "democratic traits" related to your wishes of ukrainising Odessan Russian-speakers?

I realize you as deeply uneducated person under mask of intellectual but this everything is pseudo – you godlessly lump completely different ideas together.

It's interesting how people start to throw insults when their views are challenged.

There is not any “imperialism” (imperialism stands for aggressive external policy) with providing the Ukrainian citizens the right to use Ukrainian language.

1. Imperialism can mean
"the policy of extending the rule or authority of an empire or nation over foreign countries, or of acquiring and holding colonies and dependencies."

In this case, we have Ukrainians extending authority over Odessa, which is NOT Ukraine in historical terms.

2. What difference do you see between Polish rule over Ukraine in the past, and the present Ukraine rule over Odessa or Crimea?

We don’t use much oil and plus we have direct delivery from some Middle East partners.
(...)
So we have a kind of gas dependence but prices for Ukraine are so low that consist just 30% from world level. Therefore such dependence is economically more profitable then any independence.

I wonder what would happen if Russia would simply raise the prices to the 100%, normal free market prices.

OK so let’s say you covered the topic. However, I’m still sure the political repressions in Poland were much crueler… and overall atmosphere was (and still is) “nationalistic” as stated by Guardian. With no doubts you hide the most essential details.

No, no were no crueler repressions and I think that it really is weird that you suspect Poland of God-knows-what, but obviously see no problems in the Ukraine, where things like poisonings, falsifications of elections, glorification of war criminals, etc etc obviously do happen.

It’s obviously though level of democracy in Poland doesn’t suit European standards if any at all.

I wonder if you are simply (vainly) trying to irritate me or if you are really believing the things you are writing.

The US organisation "Freedom House" judges Poland to have a 1st class democracy and I don't recall any report by other organisations claiming the contrary.

BTW do not that the two articles you've provided contained very little specific accusations - the Russian one mentioned the suirveillance thing, while the Guardian one contained no specifics - why? Because there is very little to mention.

First it was referred to US but now majority thinks it’s Trojan horse by itself, only because of antisocial behavior of Poles. This behavior will be surely antisocial in any given society and this is non-European trait and sign of deep cultural degradation of Polish nation.

Judging by your posts, I'm certain that your understanding of what "culture" actually is and what could be considered "degradation" of it, is extremely shallow and insignificant.

The word “troublemaker” is perfect and suits you country well, though it is referred to Polish-EU relations, not to Polish-Ukrainian. So I don’t understand why you use it in this context.

To me it's quite obvious - I wanted to show you that it's not "good Germany/France vs evil Poland".
The "troublemaker country" is perfectly willing to support democracy in Ukraine or Belarus, while the "well-established, well-respected EU countries" are perfectly willing to for example oppose Ukraine's entry into NATO, because Russia want them to do that.

Here you try to primitively distort the things… historians who researched the theme are not “Orange”, they have not any political belonging at all. SBU created the working group an invited in prominent scientists and specialists from different Universities and regions. So they are absolutely objective ones, with no political setting at all.

Personally, I see many ways in which such a team could be still manipulated by it's employers, in order to produce the "expected outcome".

1) UPA never was fascist’s organization, they can be considered as patriotic army which struggled for independence of Ukraine in hard times against totalitarian regimes. Their ideology as maximum can be described as nationalism but only deeply uneducated person may mix fascism and nationalism – btw, most Poles and Russian do.

There were patriotic - no doubt, but what about preaching hate toward people of other nationalities and conducting actions directed at civilians, just because of their ethnicity?

3) Its primary target was Soviets so at the beginning they had balance with Germany but later they were repressed by fascists as political enemies.

The target against which they've achieved the most were Polish civilians.

4) They also prevented attempts of Polish occupation (the Volynn incident is not massacre in reality, it was attempt of military occupation) and Romanian one.

1) What do you mean by "military occupation" vs "a massacre"? Tens of thousands of Polishc civilians were murdered by the UPA, while the region was NOT under Polish military control, the Poles constituted only around 16% of population, and there were German troops there.

2) The Volyn Massacres were not "an incident", these were a series of mass murders in virtually hundreds of villages.

5) All the war crimes of UPA on the territory of Ukraine were forged and were turned into tool of soviet propaganda.

1) I'm feeling like I was reading a short summary of Soviet propaganda, only with the names changed.

2) So who did murder the Polish civilians, in their opinion??? Did they murder themselves?

What are those AK reports in essence?

One of many things showing that the OUN/UPA *did* take deliberate ethnic cleansing actions toward Polish civilians.

Are there chances AK, the band of cranky Polish murderers, didn’t distorted the things right there, in 1943?

Please do not mistake AK with UPA, and do not call them "cranky murderers" -
there is no proof that the AK sanctioned ethnic cleansing like UPA did.

I saw articles but they use AK report as source so it’s like building the first floor when the basement is rotten. The outcomes are not correct because they go from forged politically biased sources.

So Polish sorces are biased, but Ukrainians are not biased, in your opinion?

BTW, do you think that the local AK commanders would lie to their superiors, AFTER having seen mutilated bodies of Polish women and children? How do you think, how would it affect them?

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

Please be so kind and read EVERY line of the above text. Also, try to analyze the given references (in numerous languages).

When I gave this link to audience I wrote Wiki resources are created by users, not by scientists. Why do you think I completely agree with that page? That never was my own opinion, my own one is in my posts.

You need to realize there are UPA History 1.0 and UPA History 2.0. That Wiki page is about UPA History 1.0. Version 2.0 began when Ukrainian security services opened KGB archives and invited the historians, as result UPA was rehabilitated in Ukraine completely.

There are hundreds of episodes in their history and Volyn is just little stone which is not worth attention in the bigger picture of more important events. Though I think this case need to be investigated – only with aim to show how brutal and cruel Polish propaganda was and how much it distorted the things.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

So in your opinion, one should be either anti-Russian in all kinds of cases, or pro-Russian in all kinds of cases?

Of course not, it’s another distortion of my idea. What I mean you are playing disgusting but as well comic performance where righteous Pole accuses unrighteous Ukrainian… comic as well as disgusting moment is the same point of accession is absent… in first case you struggle against any possible sympathies to Russians, in second case you accuse people their sympathies to Russian aren’t hot enough.

Only fool will not see the performance exists only for performance and not for ideas declared. That’s why those ideas have not any value at all.

Both Russian or anti-Russian ideas are just tool to prove any superiority of an Pole over an Ukrainian - and Russian theme in reality has not any meaning here at all.

It’s just casus belli, reason for war.

BTW it's called "cognitive dissonance", and that's what makes people angry and emotionally unbalanced when you claim they are wrong.

Oh yeah that’s exactly cognitive dissonance, you are right. Flow of brutal lies, nasty concoction, and biased figments makes me see thousands of contradictions and mistakes, dissonance happens when people call it the truth.

Nothing strange here. Btw, you have idealized image of Poland.

Ok, so what's the essential difference between the position in the above sentence, and the position of Polish authorities toward Ukrainians during the 20s and 30s?

Ukrainians were real national group - and “denationalized” part of Odessa is not nation or ethnical group of any kind. We care the right of all diasporas there but those “odessites” are not diasporas, it’s just wrong identity.

Below are the "per capita" economical ratings of Ukraine, Poland and Russia.

I really don’t know where you got the info but your belief in paltry papers is just hilarious. These numbers are biased, Poland sucks the funds from EU bosom so you live on donation. Such beggar’s kind of economics will not win competition with real battle tempered industrial giants of Ukraine.

"natural Ukrainian pluralism" - very curious statement, considering that mass murders of Poles and Jews done by Ukrainians - and I'm not speaking only about WWII.

How could you prove that? As I said earlier, the Jewish murders in 1943 were done not by UPA, murderers of Poles are still not proved (if you don’t mean those yellow toilet papers are your proofs) so please explain what do you mean or get lost.

So how is the "pluralism" and "democratic traits" related to your wishes of ukrainising Odessan Russian-speakers?

This is my private opinion and democratic traits are traits of nation. I consider all including the diaporas have to use the Ukrainian language because it is official - what’s strange here? Diasporas will have additional rights, I just insist official language is official and just.

It's interesting how people start to throw insults when their views are challenged.

But why do you think this is insult? You are really not very well educated one.

I wonder what would happen if Russia would simply raise the prices to the 100%, normal free market prices.

Well, in reality we are very good partners and they never will rise the prices more then on 2-5% - accordingly to world growth. Why? Partner may feel angry and stop all the delivery at all.

No, no were no crueler repressions and I think that it really is weird that you suspect Poland of God-knows-what, but obviously see no problems in the Ukraine, where things like poisonings, falsifications of elections, glorification of war criminals, etc etc obviously do happen.

What do you mean exactly? Sine OR we have not poisonings, falsifications and those UPA guys are not criminals officially, so you’d better don’t accuse them, it’s hard crime already.

Nothing worse then in Italy where the Vatican is.

I wonder if you are simply (vainly) trying to irritate me or if you are really believing the things you are writing.

I really believe in British, Russian and German press.

The US organisation "Freedom House" judges Poland to have a 1st class democracy and I don't recall any report by other organisations claiming the contrary.

Well, Human Right Watch accused Poland and Romania in holding the CIA prisons and that’s still not rejected.

Judging by your posts, I'm certain that your understanding of what "culture" actually is and what could be considered "degradation" of it, is extremely shallow and insignificant.

Why? Poles pressure Germany, Russia and Ukraine by "war crimes" which either don’t exist or have not any sense in current momentum, as blackmail. Why isn't it degradation?

The "troublemaker country" is perfectly willing to support democracy in Ukraine

But what the bill you presented! We got to give out our national heroes for beating and humiliation to nerds… you’d better don’t support here anything and just go away with peace.

Personally, I see many ways in which such a team could be still manipulated by it's employers, in order to produce the "expected outcome".

Those scientist are not employees, they are volunteers.

There were patriotic - no doubt, but what about preaching hate toward people of other nationalities and conducting actions directed at civilians, just because of their ethnicity?

They preached only hate to aggressors and I don’t know any proves of actions directed at civilians (if you don’t mean those yellow toilet papers are your proofs).

The target against which they've achieved the most were Polish civilians.

Now, there are not any evidences except the forged sourses of gang of cranky murderers wich were direct participients.

What do you mean by "military occupation" vs "a massacre"?

I mean presence of Polish troops in Ukraine means occupation automatically.

The Volyn Massacres were not "an incident", these were a series of mass murders in virtually hundreds of villages.

Unfortunately, all the evidences are primitively forged. How could you prove them if they come from interested side and witnesses are just frightened by Polish security services?

So who did murder the Polish civilians, in their opinion??? Did they murder themselves?

They were not killed at all or killed by rebellious peasants what is struggle against occupants. The will of people is law.

One of many things showing that the OUN/UPA *did* take deliberate ethnic cleansing actions toward Polish civilians.

Unfortunately, as it is accepted in law (this requires education) if the evidences come from obviously interested side they cannot be considered as completely trustworthy. I don’t refuse everything at all though. These reports have to be researched and supported by Ukrainian specialists – without such support it’s just one way accusing.

As about live witnesses, they have to be checked on “lie detector” in Ukraine or cross-examined in SBU using the natrium pentanat, the “truth serum”.

there is no proof that the AK sanctioned ethnic cleansing like UPA did

However, the number of Ukrainian killed by AK in Volyn is bigger then number of Poles killed by Ukrainian peasants - accordingly to some Ukrainian sources.

BTW, do you think that the local AK commanders would lie to their superiors, AFTER having seen mutilated bodies of Polish women and children? How do you think, how would it affect them?

It wouldn’t affect them at all because they didn’t see “mutilated bodies of Polish women and children” ever… or these were bodies of Ukrainians whom they killed.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

When I gave this link to audience I wrote Wiki resources are created by users, not by scientists. Why do you think I completely agree with that page? That never was my own opinion, my own one is in my posts.

You need to realize there are UPA History 1.0 and UPA History 2.0. That Wiki page is about UPA History 1.0. Version 2.0 began when Ukrainian security services opened KGB archives and invited the historians, as result UPA was rehabilitated in Ukraine completely.

There are hundreds of episodes in their history and Volyn is just little stone which is not worth attention in the bigger picture of more important events. Though I think this case need to be investigated – only with aim to show how brutal and cruel Polish propaganda was and how much it distorted the things.

Max, information on UPA in the English version of Wikipedia is detailed, well documented and the first reference is Ukrainian one, not Polish.

'Some UPA units were involved in the killing and ethnic cleansing of western Ukraine's Polish population. [1]'.
Please read [1].
Institute of Ukrainian History, Academy of Sciences of Ukraine, [http://www.history.org.ua/oun_upa/oun/16.pdf Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and the Ukrainian Insurgent Army, Chapter 16.
Listen to the voice of your competent Ukrainian specialists.

One link would also be valuable for those of you who lack information of the subject:
Sluzhba Bezbeky - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Max, you do not realize how much is written in Poland about the UPA now and how different viewpoints are expressed. Opinion of Polish historians on the UPA is divided. There are also extensive efforts of reconcilianion between the UPA and the AK in spite of bad past.
Your opinion is unacceptably flat and mythical. We are not here to support the myth but rather to describe it or challenge it.
Be more inquiring, man. The UPA image is STILL an object of controversy in Ukraine. Recognize it and get over.

This discussion became historical instead of business-like. We are in wrong category now.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Though I think this case need to be investigated – only with aim to show how brutal and cruel Polish propaganda was and how much it distorted the things.

The problem is, there was quite little distortion - the UPA's action toward Poles were indeed as horrible as it is claimed - somewhat like the ethnic cleansings in former Yugoslavia, or in Africa.

What I mean you are playing disgusting but as well comic performance where righteous Pole accuses unrighteous Ukrainian…
(...)
in second case you accuse people their sympathies to Russian aren’t hot enough.

I don't care if these are Russians or not Russians, what I find disguisting is that you want to treat them in the same way in which the Poles for example treated Ukrainians in the past - and you don't seem to see anything wrong with this hypocrisy.

As for "righteous" and "unrighteous", I think it's a matter of cultural values - Poland and Ukraine are neighbours, but generally belong to two different cultures - Poland belongs to the European, Latin one, while Ukraine belongs to the (Asiatic) Russian Orthodox culture.

Basically, in this case I'm looking on the aspect of who is right and what is the objective justice, taking my personal feelings aside, while you first look at what side is your side, and then make an opinion based on that - we both are "righteous", according to our own cultures.

Only fool will not see the performance exists only for performance and not for ideas declared.

Well, what about a person who see something what is not there?

Oh yeah that’s exactly cognitive dissonance, you are right. Flow of brutal lies, nasty concoction, and biased figments makes me see thousands of contradictions and mistakes, dissonance happens when people call it the truth.

Ok, so you think that tens of thousands of civilians are killed, and both AK and the survivors claim it was UPA, then it's a lie? I recall a statement made some human rights organisation - "the last stage of genocide is DENIAL".

Nothing strange here. Btw, you have idealized image of Poland.

Idealised in what way?

Ukrainians were real national group - and “denationalized” part of Odessa is not nation or ethnical group of any kind.

"Russians" are also a very real national group - and if we would say that the Oddesites are not true Russians, because many of them had non-Russian ancestors, then what about the Ukrainians who had for example Polish, Russian, etc etc ancestors?

I really don’t know where you got the info but your belief in paltry papers is just hilarious.

So what should I believe in? Your wishful-thinking and fantasies? Ukraine is a much poorer country than Poland, both the numbers and the Ukrainian gastarbeiters and immigrants whom I've met confirm that.

These numbers are biased, Poland sucks the funds from EU bosom so you live on donation.

1. How much money does Poland give and how much does it take from the EU?

2. Poland was much richer than Ukraine in the 90s, when it was not in the EU - this situation was present both before and after EU entrance.

Such beggar’s kind of economics will not win competition with real battle tempered industrial giants of Ukraine.

Well, whatever economy Poland has, it is doing much better than Ukraine - and your patriotic shouts do not change it.

Meanwhile, what is important is that Ukraine is poorer than Russia - which can give Russia advantage in a possible separation of Odessa or Crimea for Ukraine -the economic factor can be a great motivator.

How could you prove that? As I said earlier, the Jewish murders in 1943 were done not by UPA, murderers of Poles are still not proved (if you don’t mean those yellow toilet papers are your proofs) so please explain what do you mean or get lost.

Notice that I wrote "Ukrainians", not "UPA".

Shortly, it's crazy that you write about "natural Ukrainian pluralism", when Ukrainian history if full of ethnic-based mass murders:

1) Khmelnytsky's rebellion - mass murder of Poles and Jews
2) The mass murder of Jews done by Petlura's men
3) Participation in the Holocaust by the brave Ukrainian patriots who later joined UPA to murder the Poles in #4
4) The mass murder of Poles starting in 1943

But why do you think this is insult? You are really not very well educated one.

That's an insult hidden under baseless opinion.

Well, in reality we are very good partners and they never will rise the prices more then on 2-5% - accordingly to world growth. Why? Partner may feel angry and stop all the delivery at all.

Very funny - I wonder what would happen to your economy if you would stop the deliveries and had to pay full-price elsewhere.

What do you mean exactly? Sine OR we have not poisonings, falsifications and those UPA guys are not criminals officially, so you’d better don’t accuse them, it’s hard crime already.

Basically, it happened only a few years ago and the people who poisoned Jushchenko, falsified elections, etc etc are still present on the Ukrainian political scene.

Nothing worse then in Italy where the Vatican is.

True.

I really believe in British, Russian and German press.

The problem is that the press is generally NOT making precise accusations, only makes general statements which can be interpreted in many ways.

In a way you are actually quite right to believe them - in the two articles ("Guardian" and the Russian one), there was one precise accusation and it was a correct one - 1 out of 1, which is 100% correct.

As for a more objective assesment of situation in Poland, I recommed different political and human rights organisations.

Well, Human Right Watch accused Poland and Romania in holding the CIA prisons and that’s still not rejected.

Yes, that's possible, although it does't have much to do with the life of Polish society and the level of democracy and freedom a Polish citizen experiences.

[MichaelB_PL]

part 2

Why? Poles pressure Germany, Russia and Ukraine by "war crimes" which either don’t exist or have not any sense in current momentum, as blackmail. Why isn't it degradation?

Because these war crimes did indeed happen.

Usually only Russians doubt the Russian responsbility for Katyn.
Usually only Ukrainians doubt the UPA/Ukrainian responsibility for the mass murder of Poles and the Ukrainian participation in the Holocaust.
Germans...actually Germans usually admit their war crimes, as do the rest of the world.

[QUOTEś
The "troublemaker country" is perfectly willing to support democracy in Ukraine

But what the bill you presented! We got to give out our national heroes for beating and humiliation to nerds… you’d better don’t support here anything and just go away with peace.
[/quote]

Once again, you fail to understand - it's not about "presenting a bill", it's about making you understand that often receiving "flak" in the media does't make somebody a real "troublemaker".
The same countries Poland clashes with, would (and to some extent: DO) gladly sell Ukraine to Russia, while at the same time portraying Poland as a villain, when Poland tries to fight for it's interests.

Those scientist are not employees, they are volunteers.

That actually does't matter - what matters is that the organiser of such an event can easily manipulate the outcome by either hiring historians with a specific politcal sympaties, or issue "do you want to be a volunteer?" information to them, instead of more objective historians.

They preached only hate to aggressors and I don’t know any proves of actions directed at civilians (if you don’t mean those yellow toilet papers are your proofs).

Ok, so reports of people who have seen mutilated bodies of Polish civilians and reported about it are "toiltet" paper to you, because they accuse Ukrainians.
I wonder if you apply the same logic to Ukrainian documents about crimes done vs the Ukrainians?

Now, there are not any evidences except the forged sourses of gang of cranky murderers wich were direct participients.

So what about the OUN/UPA internal documents? Do you apply the same logic to them?

I mean presence of Polish troops in Ukraine means occupation automatically.

So you think that the presence of Polish troops in present day Ukraine makes mass muders of Polish civilians something else than a "massacre"?

Unfortunately, all the evidences are primitively forged. How could you prove them if they come from interested side and witnesses are just frightened by Polish security services?

1. Witnesses are interested side, because most of them have lost many family members in the slaughter - but while this makes them less credible in some aspects, it makes them extremely credible when it comes to their motivation to speak truth about WHO did this.

2. The Polish security services would't threaten them, mostly because it actually does't want this issue to be brought up to much - for political reasons.

They were not killed at all or killed by rebellious peasants what is struggle against occupants.

"Not killed at all" - so what happenened to them, and why some of their relatives who survived claim that the attacking "peasants" were often armed with machine guns, etc?

The will of people is law.

Ok, now that's what I was speaking about before, when writing about Polish-Ukrainian cultural differences.

From my Polish, European perspective: no, it was not law, mass murder of civilians is called a "crime".

Unfortunately, as it is accepted in law (this requires education) if the evidences come from obviously interested side they cannot be considered as completely trustworthy. I don’t refuse everything at all though. These reports have to be researched and supported by Ukrainian specialists – without such support it’s just one way accusing.

Well, would't the "Ukrainian specialists" be a "interested side" also?

As about live witnesses, they have to be checked on “lie detector” in Ukraine or cross-examined in SBU using the natrium pentanat, the “truth serum”.

A pity nobody will apply the much easier solution of injecting the "truth serum" to the various UPA veterans living in Ukraine, who really keep silent about the less noble part of their actions during the 40s.

However, the number of Ukrainian killed by AK in Volyn is bigger then number of Poles killed by Ukrainian peasants - accordingly to some Ukrainian sources.

It's possible, although probably not likely that the number of Poles killed by the UPA and Ukrainian peasants was higher - but there would be a huge problem in determining which Ukrainians were killed by AK, and which ones were killed by UPA(B).

Yes, that was not a typo - UPA(B) often killed other Ukrainians for collaboration with the Soviets and also for political differences - for example, there was some actual armed violence between UPA(B) and UPA(M). (Melnyk's faction)

It wouldn’t affect them at all because they didn’t see “mutilated bodies of Polish women and children” ever… or these were bodies of Ukrainians whom they killed.

A "curious" point of view, unfortunately obviously based on lack of any knowledge of the subject. Do you realise that there are lists with names of thousands of Poles from Volyn and Galicia who were murdered by the UPA? What happened to them in your opinion?


Michael