Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Why would be the Ukrainian integrity be a problem for me?
Personally, I think that they should be given some small level of autonomy.

Really, as far as I know Kyivan politic mentality they don’t suppose any ethnic or national autonomies in Ukraine even as a joke or weak suggestion.

There is only autonomy, Crimea, but they are because area is too big to be ruled via regular regional system. So this is territorial autonomy more. But sincerely, there are not any separate nations in Ukraine which deserve for autonomy, all we’ve got are sub ethical Ukrainian groups or some foreign diasporas.

In case with Odessa they are motley mix of numerous nations but neither separate nation nor sub ethnos. Besides, no one gives national autonomies to cities. Also it can worsen position of Ukrainian-speaking Odessites which is being damaged even now.

Actually, federal ideas are popular in Ukraine but in current situation this can lead to disintegration of the country. With no doubts, Russia will use such situation as possibility to take control over such hypothetic federal governments and to shift them to own hands.

That's perfectly normal - and for exampke, AFAIK, Galician Ukrainians differ from Carpathian Rusins - does it change anything?

In this certain case, to say “Russian speaking” is more correct then “Russian”. It’s just a kind of cultural self-realization, rather fictional; it’s not ethnic or genetic belonging. See the geographic distance between south of Ukraine and seats of “clear” Russian culture (Novgorod, Smolensk, etc) and you will get the thing.

Ukrainians as such are intermixed with Russians, Poles, Germans, etc etc...

This is matter of proportion – the nation or city group. Anyhow traits of original cultures are lost in such multi-faced societies. However due to luck of time they didn’t grow to outstanding nations though sometimes they realize themselves as something different.

What about Sorbs (Serbs) in Germany, what about Belgium, Switzerland, etc etc ? Do you think that imposing language and culture on people is the only way

I don’t see the connection. If you are a Ukrainian in Germany, learn German, if you are a Ukrainian in Poland, learn Polish… but if you are a Russian in Ukraine, learn Ukrainian. What for to give privileges not given to us?

This is absolutely natural order.

No, I see it differently - what about situations in which local commanders of the given army initiate mass murder out of their own initiative?

I think, they got blessing for such things from above… anyway, the captain is responsible for whole ship and supreme commander is responsible for whole army.

I suspect that the "independent historians", are independent, but they have their own political sympathies and they prefer to let out the pro-OUN part of the message "the Soviets murdered to slander UPA", but "forgot" the mention the other part "but still, UPA did murder tens of thousands of civilians itself".

SBU is ruled now by Orange proteges but I think they are objective… besides, they give archives to public by large pieces so I think they didn’t opened all the secrets yet… including the Volyn events. And historians are neutral people in any case.

... the Kaczynski brothers were accused of every possible wrong-doing by the media, but the same people who say "Kaczynski's are evil", have significant trouble saying what exactly did they did.

You know, there is not smog without fire. I have not access to original Polish press but oblique evidences are not favorable. So what about prosecution of political opposition and “communist connection” cleansings?

1. The available information speaks about an organised action, directed against Poles in hundreds of villages - the peasants themselves could't do it, because they had no organisations capable of doing it.

2. The mass murders had a political background linked with OUN/UPA, which wanted to create "Ukraine free from Poles".

However, there is possibility of spontaneous anti-Polish massacre, such things burst into flame fast. I have no doubts it was instigated and lately UPA entered the battle, as well as AK.

But seeing the entire thing, I can’t see real motives for UPA for such bloodshed.

Obviously, nationalists hated Jews stronger the Poles but they didn’t touch them during whole the war. Such numerous victims among Poles are not motivated. Numbers 100 000- 500 000 seem to be very doubtful. UPA obviously had not resources for such extended bloodshed.

I think real numbers of Polish victims are at least ten times less. And version of spontaneous anti-Polish rebellion of Ukrainian peasants is more reliable. UPA however could act with other directives.

Actually, I want to stress I’m in weaker position about Volyn incident. All information comes from Poland only, which makes things flat. Ukrainian official science holds deep silence so I experience lack of information to judge. Only what I found is indirect comments of some historians while most of them are skeptical.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

. Also it can worsen position of Ukrainian-speaking Odessites which is being damaged even now.

How is it being damaged? I though that the official language there is still Ukrainian?

Actually, federal ideas are popular in Ukraine but in current situation this can lead to disintegration of the country. With no doubts, Russia will use such situation as possibility to take control over such hypothetic federal governments and to shift them to own hands.

1. Actually, I was thinking about a possibility of giving them a bit of cultural autonomy, not creating any kind of semi-independent federal entity.

2. In case of any bigger conflict with Russia, Odessa is it's pro-Russian population would propably be a liability this or the other way - the Ossetian/Abhasian issue in Georgia is interesting in this aspect.

What I'm trying to say here is that keeping that minority content might be more beneficial for Ukraine than trying too hard to make Ukrainians out of them.

In this certain case, to say “Russian speaking” is more correct then “Russian”. It’s just a kind of cultural self-realization, rather fictional; it’s not ethnic or genetic belonging. See the geographic distance between south of Ukraine and seats of “clear” Russian culture (Novgorod, Smolensk, etc) and you will get the thing.

I think it's a matter of the criteria one would be using - depending on the critieria, the results would vary... for example, if I understand correctly, Ukrainians from different regions of Ukraine differ from each other in their traditions, propably no less than the "Odessan Russians" differ from "Russians Proper".

I don’t see the connection. If you are a Ukrainian in Germany, learn German, if you are a Ukrainian in Poland, learn Polish… but if you are a Russian in Ukraine, learn Ukrainian. What for to give privileges not given to us?

In Poland, for example, Polish goverment funds Ukrainian cultural organisations and media - these are some privileges given to Ukrainians in Poland, so could't the Odessan Russians get similiar ones?

I think, they got blessing for such things from above… anyway, the captain is responsible for whole ship and supreme commander is responsible for whole army.

Ok, so by using the same rule, I assume you will be willing to condemn the UPA leadership if *ANY* of UPA's local units commited any warcrimes?

(as for me, I believe in "partial responsibility" or "passive responsibility" in such cases)

SBU is ruled now by Orange proteges but I think they are objective… (...) And historians are neutral people in any case.

I do not claim that I have perfect knowledge of that matter, but AFAIK, the "Orange people" actually act a bit like Soviets in regard to Katyn - they try to save the good name of UPA, even if it means obscuring the truth.

As for historians, historians have political sympathies like any other people, I'm afraid...

You know, there is not smog without fire. I have not access to original Polish press but oblique evidences are not favorable. So what about prosecution of political opposition and “communist connection” cleansings?

Personally, I can't recall any single case of opposition politician who would go to jail because of the Kaczynski brothers - and I doubt that the articles you have read give a specific description of such deed either.

IMO/AFAIK: nothing definite has happened, and when Polish unfriendly press created anti-Kaczynski atmosphere to influence the voters, some foreign press echoed that, without looking deeper into the matter.

BTW, please give me the link to the British press articles, let's search them for
amount of precise accusations vs the amount of general statements which cannot be either proved or disproved.


However, there is possibility of spontaneous anti-Polish massacre, such things burst into flame fast. I have no doubts it was instigated and lately UPA entered the battle, as well as AK.

But seeing the entire thing, I can’t see real motives for UPA for such bloodshed.

Polish sources claim that the motive was an emotional one - ethnic hate, of a "Balkan" variety one might say, logical analisys of motives is not applicable in such cases.

Obviously, nationalists hated Jews stronger the Poles but they didn’t touch them during whole the war.

It was much more complicated than that - many UPA members were deserters from the German-controlled auxiliary police, who actually already had blood of Jews on their hands before joining UPA.

BTW It's quite likely that the presence of these men, who have already participated in mass murder of civilians and who were certainly "changed" by that on the mental level, had significant impact on "Volhynian massacres" and the shape of Polish-Ukrainian warfare.

Such numerous victims among Poles are not motivated. Numbers 100 000- 500 000 seem to be very doubtful. UPA obviously had not resources for such extended bloodshed.

Yes, the 100-500K was false, the true number is estimated around 60-100K. (for all territories, not just Volyn)

And version of spontaneous anti-Polish rebellion of Ukrainian peasants is more reliable.

IMO it is doubtful that disorganised peasants would be able to attack hundreds of villages and kill tens of thousands of people...

Actually, I want to stress I’m in weaker position about Volyn incident. All information comes from Poland only, which makes things flat. Ukrainian official science holds deep silence so I experience lack of information to judge. Only what I found is indirect comments of some historians while most of them are skeptical.

Yes, I understand that - this issue get's much more interest in Poland, and I think I understand how you feel - you see the issue but do not have enough information to form an opinion.

From my side however, it's different - after reading a bit of Polish sources about that, I think that the pro-UPA political circles in Ukrainian Galicia know perfectly that digging this matter up will damage UPA's reputation in a severe way, continuously dealing blows to the image of their ideology and ethos.

IMO, taking aside the Polish-side evidence, most of which looks extensive and credible, I think that if UPA was innocent, then the pro-UPA circles would already conduct intensive research to prove it - the fact that they did't and that instead they have instead tried to ignore the issue, suggests that they know exactly that a throughout investigation will give a result they will not like.


Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

Gee, what a novel! No one replied for some days so I just forgot about this discussion and found its continuation just now.

Well, I can’t overcome the temptation to quote you over again:

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Russians - asiatic semi-savages, Tatar/Mongol minds hidden under European genetic makeup.

It’s so precious when people are sincere. I suspected you will be free in your anti-Russian feelings with Western Ukrainians but you will not dare to say it everything right in the eyes of any native Russian (or even something like that)… well, I was absolutely right.

People are made from different stuff.

At the moment I lost the interest to this issue so just few fast remarks about.

How is it being damaged? I though that the official language there is still Ukrainian?

There are many examples, for example chauvinistic anti-Ukrainian TV channel ATV, treatment of Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians as second kind people, non-acceptance of official language and culture, propaganda of delirious “national” identity (“odessites”) etc… the smell is too bad.

Actually, I was thinking about a possibility of giving them a bit of cultural autonomy, not creating any kind of semi-independent federal entity.

The “Cultural” supposes the definite national culture. As I said earlier we deal with denationalized Russian-Jewish-Moldavian mix. Have we got to give them 3 autonomies at once?

What I'm trying to say here is that keeping that minority content might be more beneficial for Ukraine than trying too hard to make Ukrainians out of them.

And again, it’s hard to realize what kind of minority it is. Because when the real color is absent, and traits are lost, it is more beneficial to make the normal citizens of Ukraine out of them. This only will make their life here better – they will never be anywhere else.

As about question about cultural organizations so sorry – there is no ethnicity, there are no organizations. Real Russian diaspora living among them has own organizations, btw.

On the whole, you completely lost my main idea about the particular city never can be basis for real ethnicity and especially for real nation.

Ok, so by using the same rule, I assume you will be willing to condemn the UPA leadership if *ANY* of UPA's local units commited any warcrimes?

This is more interesting stuff but as I said earlier, I don’t know anything about proved UPA war crimes.

As for historians, historians have political sympathies like any other people, I'm afraid...

Well, there is known political bias in every situation. But I think this is first time when historic data was analyzed without any ideological settings.

BTW, please give me the link to the British press articles, let's search them for amount of precise accusations vs the amount of general statements which cannot be either proved or disproved.

Poland riles Germany with a lewd take on the motherland | World news | The Guardian

Voice of Russia

Polish sources claim that the motive was an emotional one - ethnic hate, of a "Balkan" variety one might say, logical analisys of motives is not applicable in such cases.

Why? Poles were not problem for UPA soldiers who got enough problems with Germany and Russia. It wasn’t any strategic military moment.

But peasants had all backgrounds to think Poles use their lands (land is great value), robber Ukrainian resources and so they could desire to get back those lands and houses. Plus, they were oppressed by Poles previously so this is also the fuel of massacre.

The greed is excellent motive.

It was much more complicated than that - many UPA members were deserters from the German-controlled auxiliary police, who actually already had blood of Jews on their hands before joining UPA.

I guess the recruited many folks but the UPA itself is not responsible for their earlier sins.

Yes, the 100-500K was false, the true number is estimated around 60-100K. (for all territories, not just Volyn)

Or likely even ten times less. I have not trustworthy information to judge.

IMO it is doubtful that disorganised peasants would be able to attack hundreds of villages and kill tens of thousands of people...

Do you think peasants are dumb animals? They had weapon, there were provocateurs and organizers… I doubt the massacre began everywhere at once… it flamed in one place then came to another and such step by step it involved all the area.

The lands and houses were the biggest motive same as emotional revenge.

Btw, if Poles didn’t occupy those Ukrainian lands, there would be not any massacres. So the spring originally was pressed by Poles.

...you see the issue but do not have enough information to form an opinion.

I heard about Volyn event just now. The clear obvious information in Ukraine is absent, some indirect comments are based on Polis sources. However, I think SBU archives contain many evidences about events.

From my side however, it's different - after reading a bit of Polish sources about that, I think that the pro-UPA political circles in Ukrainian Galicia know perfectly that digging this matter up will damage UPA's reputation in a severe way, continuously dealing blows to the image of their ideology and ethos.

First of all, I’m not resident of Halych, I live in neighbor’s region. So I’m not an interested person.

Second, there is not such thing as “pro-UPA political circles” in Ukraine because UPA doesn’t exist now. May be you mean nationalist’s circles but this ideology is not prohibited here.

And actually, I can’t see difference between UPA and Armia Krajowa in essence.

IMO, taking aside the Polish-side evidence, most of which looks extensive and credible, I think that if UPA was innocent, then the pro-UPA circles would already conduct intensive research to prove it - the fact that they did't and that instead they have instead tried to ignore the issue, suggests that they know exactly that a throughout investigation will give a result they will not like.

Well, I don’t think evidences can be credible if they are coming from one side only. So I can’t say I agree with everything said. Only I heard is Polish version however for me it seems to be full of holes.

Then, no one could conduct any researches because the information likely is contained in SBU archives and they are not accessible. When it will be opened and researched, the time for conclusion will come. And before, this is everything about “possible maybe”.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Well, I can’t overcome the temptation to quote you over again:

It’s so precious when people are sincere. I suspected you will be free in your anti-Russian feelings with Western Ukrainians but you will not dare to say it everything right in the eyes of any native Russian (or even something like that)… well, I was absolutely right.

I'm not sure what's your point in this case - do you wish to criticise my views on the cultural classification of Russians, or accuse me of some kind of dishonesty?

There are many examples, for example chauvinistic anti-Ukrainian TV channel ATV, treatment of Ukrainian-speaking Ukrainians as second kind people, non-acceptance of official language and culture, propaganda of delirious “national” identity (“odessites”) etc… the smell is too bad.

And what would you like to do with them? Put them in prison? If things there are like that, then obviously these people do not want to be Ukrainians and nothing can be done quickly about that.

The “Cultural” supposes the definite national culture. As I said earlier we deal with denationalized Russian-Jewish-Moldavian mix. Have we got to give them 3 autonomies at once?

I doubt that they speak Hebraic,Jiddish or Romanian - I suspect that they are Russian-speakers, and should be treated as such.

And again, it’s hard to realize what kind of minority it is. Because when the real color is absent, and traits are lost, it is more beneficial to make the normal citizens of Ukraine out of them. This only will make their life here better – they will never be anywhere else.

I'd say that you show a very strong faith in the permanency of the state which exists for about 18 years...actually, what do you think makes Abhasian/South Ossetian scenario impossible in Odessa's case?

On the whole, you completely lost my main idea about the particular city never can be basis for real ethnicity and especially for real nation.

AFAIK, majority of these people do think of themselves as "Russian" or "quasi-Russian".

Well, there is known political bias in every situation. But I think this is first time when historic data was analyzed without any ideological settings.

That's possible, but I think that generally, it is not like that.

One of the most effective ways of falsifying history is to simply select which evidence will be taken in account and which will not.

In this case, I do not think that the "Ukrainian side" is pursuing all available evidence - for example, AFAIK many of the survivors of these massacres still live, people who hid well or were helped by their Ukrainian neighbours - if "Orange people" would be really interested in obtaining full information on this matter, they would send a small team of people to Poland to interview the survivors... but they are not doing that - why?

Simple: because they either know, either suspect that the result would be not what they want.

Poland riles Germany with a lewd take on the motherland | World news | The Guardian

Voice of Russia

The second link opens to a general site, I do not know which article you mean.

As for the first article:

0) This is "The Guardian", which is quite a leftist newspaper and which is know for being not too much objective.

1) The article starts with a perhaps somewhat shocking mention of the picture with Kaczynski brothers sucking the breasts of Merkel, but that was printed by a private "Wprost" magazine, which has nothing to do with Kaczynkis

2) "summit nearly collapsed because of Polish resistance to a German blueprint on how to run the EU" - that's not a impartial statement.

The same thing could be expressed "summit nearly collapsed because of German lack of willingness to accomodate Polish proposals" - that sentence is biased in the opposite way.

A balanced statement would be "summit nearly collapsed because Poland and Germany disagreed over the blueprint on how to run the EU"

Notice how the Guardian phrased the description in a way suggesting that Poland is somehow "guilty" of the situation, while a much more neutral statement could be used.

3) The right-wing Warsaw weekly magazine Wprost, which backs the conservative nationalist regime of the prime minister, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, and his twin brother, the president, Lech Kaczynski, has the cover of its latest issue as a montage showing "a beaming chancellor Merkel as "Europe's stepmother" baring her breasts to nourish the infant Polish twins.

<- when somebody used the word "regime", most people think of a non-democratic goverment, while the Kaczynskis/PIS won democratic elections, and then peacefully went away when they've lost the second elections - it's a very "odd" choice of words, which is not consistent with reality.

<<In an article in the magazine, a Polish government official reacted to the weekend summit in Brussels, at which Poland stood alone threatening to wreck a deal and won big concessions from Mrs Merkel, by arguing that Germany was treating its eastern neighbour "neo-colonially" and refusing to accept it as a European partner. He accused Mrs Merkel of "humiliating" Poland at the summit because she was "full of complexes herself". >>

Some people say that Germany IS treating Poland "neo-colonially" and I agree - but of course many people disagree.


<<The magazine's treatment of Mrs Merkel was condemned across the political spectrum in Germany yesterday. "This montage is tasteless and does nothing to help German-Polish relations," said Rainer Brüderle, of the liberal Free Democrats.>>

I agree - but that's not fault of Kaczynski's, they have also been portrayed in a negative manner on this picture.

<<Markus Meckel, of the Social Democrats, and head of the German-Polish parliamentary group, said: "It is quite unbelievable. Poland has lost so many friends over the past weeks and months. It should really think hard in the future about how it hopes to win them back.">>

Translation: He believes Poland is "good" when it's accepting everything, but it's "bad" when it does makes demands. Unfortunately, I think that this stance is common among many Germans politicians. BTW: If Ukraine will enter the EU, you will be treated exactly in the same way.


<<In the run-up to last week's summit, the Polish prime minister stunned colleagues in Europe by seeking to parlay Polish suffering at the hands of the Nazis into greater power in EU councils. Had it not been for the Nazi occupation and murder of six million Poles, half of them Jews, Poland would be much bigger and more powerful in the EU, he argued.>>

Initially, that might be shocking, but I find that to be actually reasonable - I think that the Germans should compensate us for every possible loss inflicted upon us by them during WWII.


<<Mr Kaczynski lost, but got a new EU voting system postponed, guaranteeing that in crucial talks on EU budgets in 2013-14, Warsaw will be in a much more powerful position than it might have been.>>


And that's the core of the issue - power within the EU, all else is smokescreen. The Germans expected Poland to give away power and make no
demands, no protest, etc etc. Then they were angry because they had to give Poland something.


<<But Mariusz Muszynski, the Polish ministry official who advises on relations with Germany, said in Wprost that Berlin still refused to treat Poland as "a partner" in Europe.>>

I'm afraid that's true - the Germans want to impose many things on others.



<< Wprost, which has a circulation of 700,000, has often used graphics to provoke Germany. Its editor-in-chief, Stanislaw Janecki, defended the latest image. "We just wanted to have a bit of fun," he told Spiegel Online>>

I do think that the graphics were distasteful, but that's "Janecki" from the newspaper, not "Kaczynski" who is responsible.

Summary: I do understand what kind of "first impression" you might get from reading such an article, but that's just a biased article, using bad impression created by posting the distasteful "Wprost" cover - which is NOT responsibility of Kaczynskis and the issue of EU negotiations with Germany - which is a matter of making demands and only means that the Kaczynski brothers fought for Polish interests within the EU.

[MichaelB_PL]

Why? Poles were not problem for UPA soldiers who got enough problems with Germany and Russia. It wasn’t any strategic military moment.

1) Your reasoning makes perfect sense, is very logical and I completely agree with it, save in one aspect - UPA was not a organisation ruled by common sense - basically, they went against everybody - Soviets, Germans, Poles, other Ukrainians (like Melnyk UPA faction) - murdering Poles was not needed from practical point of view, but IMO/AFAIK it was motivated by political reasons - vision of "Ukraine free of Poles".

Trying to apply logic and practical concerns to human motives will very often fail, especially in the case of mass murders.

But peasants had all backgrounds to think Poles use their lands (land is great value), robber Ukrainian resources and so they could desire to get back those lands and houses. Plus, they were oppressed by Poles previously so this is also the fuel of massacre.

The greed is excellent motive.

Yes, but it's unlikely that the peasants-by-themselves would:

A) organise a wide-spread mass murder action
B) be able to defeat Polish self-defense and AK units
C) Would be afraid of revenge.


You are very correct in that sense that greed was a factor and that local Ukrainian peasants took part - but AFAIK, it was UPA which organised and incited the actions, local Ukrainians peasants were only a tool.

Beside that, I have a book with UPA order specifically ordering destruction of Polish villages - the book was printed in the 2000s, it's not old Soviet propaganda.

I guess the recruited many folks but the UPA itself is not responsible for their earlier sins.

Of course, but the fact is still important, because:

1) It shows us that there were mass murderers and war criminals in UPA ranks, men who have already murdered civilians - which adds creditibility to the Polish version of these events, because men who have killed civilians before, are more likely to do it again without remorse.

2) It shows an interesting thing about UPA's leadership - they knew exactly that they are enlisting war criminals into their ranks - the question is: what does it suggest about the general "atmosphere" within UPA?

Btw, if Poles didn’t occupy those Ukrainian lands, there would be not any massacres. So the spring originally was pressed by Poles.

If two nations live next to each other, there will be influx of population in both ways - and the majority of the murdered Poles were not politicians, soldiers or noblemen, but instead humble peasants who lived there for centuries.



I heard about Volyn event just now. The clear obvious information in Ukraine is absent, some indirect comments are based on Polis sources. However, I think SBU archives contain many evidences about events.



First of all, I’m not resident of Halych, I live in neighbor’s region. So I’m not an interested person.

Second, there is not such thing as “pro-UPA political circles” in Ukraine because UPA doesn’t exist now. May be you mean nationalist’s circles but this ideology is not prohibited here.

And actually, I can’t see difference between UPA and Armia Krajowa in essence.

Well, I don’t think evidences can be credible if they are coming from one side only.

Well, it's like that because the other side has got little intention to definitively
solve and expose this matter.

BTW, some interesting links, it's an Ukrainian goverment site, with some internal AK documents in it, I hope you will understand Polish at least a bit...

"бНКХМЭ - яУЁДМЮ цЮКХВХМЮ. 1943-1944: ДНЙСЛЕМРХ"

Fragment:

"Poles living in Radziejow,Stochanow, Cholochow, Grajowa, Maziana, receive death sentences or expulsion orders "Ukrainian Halyczan Land". The orders are signed by OUN"

"бНКХМЭ - яУЁДМЮ цЮКХВХМЮ. 1943-1944: ДНЙСЛЕМРХ"

"For example, we present an order sent on 26 July by OUN to a Polish teacher: "Nakaz. Nakazujet sie proklatomi Lachowi...uczytelewu...opustyty nechajno ukrainsku halycku zemlu do dnia 10 serpna toho roku. Potim termini was ubijut. Nimciw powidomlaty ne wilno, bo smert budu nehajna -OUN-"

[Max_the_Highlander]

Are you jobless, Michael? I’m not so let’s write a bit shorter and succinctly.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

I'm not sure what's your point in this case - do you wish to criticise my views on the cultural classification of Russians, or accuse me of some kind of dishonesty?

Previously you claimed your aim in this discussion is to spot my contradictions… so I try to spot yours. Here I try to show how much inconsistent you are in your opinions… you expressed radically anti-Russian views in discussion with me and Unbreakable but just when it was applied to any real person you began defends the rights of Russian-speaking minorities.

This leads to certain outcome – you are inconsistent in you positions, use them as situational instrument and we should be in earnest about your arguments because a year after you will say something quite opposite.

I, for example, stated from the beginning both Poles and Russian are enslavers of Ukraine and I still firmly believe that. There is not any moral difference between them at all. This is the evergreen axiom for me.

And what would you like to do with them? Put them in prison? If things there are like that, then obviously these people do not want to be Ukrainians and nothing can be done quickly about that.

No, we can do many things and prisons are the last point in the list. There are many civilized ways of reeducation, on the whole I hope Kyiv will handle the situation because finally we deal with fictions and illusions and that could be healed.

If they are not real Russians but speak Russian they can speak Ukrainian as well without damage. There is no harm here.

As about permanency of Ukraine… I’m personally ready to break all the bones of everyone who encroach on it.

You still can’t realize the particular city can’t be the basis of particular nation. It’s anti-historic rubbish. I will repeat you it again and again. The ethnicity or nation can’t be born in one city, this process requires vast lands and many time.

So any “identities” are completely fictional.

As about foreign disporas, here in Uzhgorod we have numerous Hungarian diaspora with own prosperous organizations - does it lead us to outcome Uzhgorod is Hungarian city with Hungarian ethnic identity? That’s just another syllogism.

The second link opens to a general site, I do not know which article you mean.

Voice of Russia

Summary: I do understand what kind of "first impression" you might get from reading such an article…

Polish-German relations are very strained, Poland is considered in EU as aggressor, provocateur and hired hitman.

if "Orange people" would be really interested in obtaining full information on this matter, they would send a small team of people to Poland to interview the survivors... but they are not doing that - why?

Wrong, when UPA was just rehabilitated, Ukrainian delegation arrived to Poland together with TV journalists to study local sources… the outcomes were clear – most of so called evidences are brutal forgery. There are not any trustworthy documents except of obvious crap.

Trying to apply logic and practical concerns to human motives will very often fail, especially in the case of mass murders.

Over again, I don’t know any evidences of UPA mass murders of civilians. In Ukraine they are completely rehabilitated, Volynn incident is not proved yet because Polish version is forged.

You need to realize one important thing: UPA in Ukraine now is same as Armia Krajowa in Poland. You have yours heroes, we have ours. We trust documents of UPA now, not any forged “reports” of AK.

No any report of AK can be taken into consideration because AK is interested side and tries to hide own war crimes against Ukrainian civil population.

...but AFAIK, it was UPA which organised and incited the actions, local Ukrainians peasants were only a tool.

It’s probable but I tend to think peasants were the real engine of events mentioned and so it is not war crimes but people’s revenge. Those Volynn peasants of course deserve their own big bright medal – they set against AK and UPA just defended them in this battle.

...the question is: what does it suggest about the general "atmosphere" within UPA?

Recruiting of those folks is probable but yet it is just your own suggestion. As usually, there are not proofs.

If two nations live next to each other, there will be influx of population in both ways - and the majority of the murdered Poles were not politicians, soldiers or noblemen, but instead humble peasants who lived there for centuries.

I doubt if they were so humble. But this proves my point in earlier discussion - despite of centuries of ethnic humiliation Ukrainians knew who are Poles and who are Ukrainian – and relations were very strained, the Volynn incident shows Poles were perceived as occupants on Western Ukraine.

Which required to be proved.

BTW, some interesting links, it's an Ukrainian goverment site, with some internal AK documents in it, I hope you will understand Polish at least a bit...

Yes, these are documents from Ukrainian governmental site but these are AK reports – and so they are not trustworthy source.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Previously you claimed your aim in this discussion is to spot my contradictions… so I try to spot yours. Here I try to show how much inconsistent you are in your opinions… you expressed radically anti-Russian views in discussion with me and Unbreakable but just when it was applied to any real person you began defends the rights of Russian-speaking minorities.

Yes, there might be some inconsistency here, although one element should be noted - feeling of need of morality and of adequate treatment.

For example, as every person, I know lots of people here in my home city - and some of them are people I hate and/or despise - but it does't have to mean that I'd like these people to be mistreated on some manner, that I'd like their rights to be violated.

It's sort of the same with Russians - I do believe them to be a barbarian nation, but it does't mean that I'm against them in every situation - in case of Ukrainian Russian-speakers, I see a big difference betwen a Odessan Russian-speaker's and a Kievan Russian-speaker's situation.

This leads to certain outcome – you are inconsistent in you positions, use them as situational instrument

I'd rather say that I see different aspects of different situations and I'm usually not "100% against" or "100% for" most things - simply because reality is a complicated place.

I, for example, stated from the beginning both Poles and Russian are enslavers of Ukraine and I still firmly believe that. There is not any moral difference between them at all. This is the evergreen axiom for me.

Well, the basic fact of enslaving is true in both cases, that's sure.

No, we can do many things and prisons are the last point in the list. There are many civilized ways of reeducation, on the whole I hope Kyiv will handle the situation because finally we deal with fictions and illusions and that could be healed.

So....how do you think one could "reeducate" them if they consider themselves to be Russians and feel antipathy toward the "Orange vision" of Ukrainian nationhood?

If they are not real Russians but speak Russian they can speak Ukrainian as well without damage. There is no harm here.

What is a "real Russian"? Or "real Ukrainian" or "real Pole"?

Is't self-assement the best way of determining nationality?

As about permanency of Ukraine… I’m personally ready to break all the bones of everyone who encroach on it.

Ok, but that's your personal attitude, while the power balance is a totally different thing. Basically, you have weak economy, a divided society and a much stronger, rather imperialistic neighbour whom you are dependant on for oil - not a very good position.

Another thing, taking the permanency aside and concentrating on the present borders of Ukraine, do you realise that the present Ukrainian state is a de facto imperialistic state, in regard to Russian-speakers living on lands which cannot be considered historically Ukrainian?

You still can’t realize the particular city can’t be the basis of particular nation. It’s anti-historic rubbish. I will repeat you it again and again. The ethnicity or nation can’t be born in one city, this process requires vast lands and many time.

Ok, but AFAIK these people consider themselves to be Russians or a subgroup of Russians - so the ethnicity is already there and it's well established.

Voice of Russia

"Democratic principles were trampled. Law enforcement agencies and Defense and related structures were used to trace politicians and journalists who were not loyal to the government."

It's true that some (AFAIK: few) people were illegaly listened using electronical devices, but I'd call it a rather small thing, far to insignificant for a phrase like "democratic principles were trampled".

I think it's a very good article, because we at least have some kind of specific accusation made. (true accusation, AFAIK)

On the other hand, the same article can serve as support for what I have wrote earlier about over-blown medial lament about the Kaczynski brothers - illegal electronic suirveilance of relatively few people is in reality everything they were guilty of, nobody was beaten,killed or put in prison, no election was falsified, etc etc.

Polish-German relations are very strained, Poland is considered in EU as aggressor, provocateur and hired hitman.

Actually, it depends on on the given country - France and Germany would like to impose their views on other countries and are angry simply because Poland considers itself an equal and will not simply follow orders.

Here it should be added that no, the EU is not a perfect place and that conflicts of interests do happen - and if Ukraine will join the EU, it will face roughly the same dilemma:

A) Shut up and follow orders
B) Defend it's interests and be branded "troublemaker" by French/German/etc press

Also:

1) It's the "troublemaker" country of Poland which supported democracy in Ukraine during the Orange Revolution

2) It's the "troublemaker" country of Poland which supports Ukraine's entry to EU and NATO, while the "decent" countries like France and Germany oppose at least the second thing.

3) It's the "decent" country of Germany which wants to build the Baltic oil pipeline, avoiding Ukraine and Poland, and giving Russia more opportunity to apply "oil blackmail".

Wrong, when UPA was just rehabilitated, Ukrainian delegation arrived to Poland together with TV journalists to study local sources… the outcomes were clear – most of so called evidences are brutal forgery. There are not any trustworthy documents except of obvious crap.

I'm really curious about that - which documents they've found to be forgery, why and how.

I suspect it might be one more case of "dextrous selection of evidence" - they 've examined some obvious crap like the ones claiming there were half million victims, and then they've went back, with a quasi-political victory in their pocket, meanwhile not examining more serious evidence.

Over again, I don’t know any evidences of UPA mass murders of civilians. In Ukraine they are completely rehabilitated, Volynn incident is not proved yet because Polish version is forged.

Can you tell me more about what these Ukrainian "Orange" historians claim about that?

You need to realize one important thing: UPA in Ukraine now is same as Armia Krajowa in Poland.

No, I see two big differences:

1) AK had never anything to do with fascist ideology. (the Polish fascist guerilla o NSZ would be the Polish equivalent of UPA)

2) I do not think that UPA are accepted as heroes by people from South/Eastern Ukraine. (Odessa, etc)

You have yours heroes, we have ours. We trust documents of UPA now, not any forged “reports” of AK.

1. What possible motive would the AK have in reporting falsehood to their superiors?

2. Besides the AK documents, there are lots of testimonies of survivors, who generally claim that often their Ukrainian neighbours were forced to murder Poles by Ukrainians from outside the village.

No any report of AK can be taken into consideration because AK is interested side and tries to hide own war crimes against Ukrainian civil population.

If the motive of the AK would be to hide it's own crimes, then the best way to do it would be to avoid mentioning these events at all - mentioning massacres of Polish civilians done by UPA is actually adding creditibility to the claims of massacres of Ukrainian civilians done by AK - and vice versa.

It’s probable but I tend to think peasants were the real engine of events mentioned and so it is not war crimes but people’s revenge.

1. Many Poles survived because some sympathetic Ukrainian neighbours helped them - why did't all Ukrainians want revenge?

2. Many Ukrainians husbands/wives were forced to murder their spouses - hardly a revenge, I think.

Those Volynn peasants of course deserve their own big bright medal

Big bright medal was butchering women and children?

Recruiting of those folks is probable but yet it is just your own suggestion. As usually, there are not proofs.

ANALYSIS: How Poland is commemorating the Volyn events of 1943 the wrong way (05/25/03)

It's an Ukrainain newspaper, and a somewhat anti-Polish article:

"This myth ignores an important factor in the Volhynian conflict when Ukrainian policemen who fled to the UPA were replaced by the Nazis with local Poles. "

Eyewitness and Survivor Testimony

" But I could not flee. We were surrounded by fascists with submachine guns, Ukrainian policemen, (...)"

http://web.mit.edu/cis/www/migration...9_resolve.html

"Many of the UPA's soldiers were former Wehrmacht soldiers, policemen, or Waffen-SS troops; and more generally the example of German nationality policy must have demoralized the Ukrainian population (as it did civilian populations elsewhere, for example in Poland.)

One way to mark the beginning of large-scale UPA operations is the defection of 5,000 Ukrainian policemen, who took their weapons to Volhynian forests in March 1943.
"

Yes, these are documents from Ukrainian governmental site but these are AK reports – and so they are not trustworthy source.

So which sources are trustworthy in your opinion?


Michael