Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

There is no change of opinion, but I see a different case here - for example, Odessa and Chechnya are two cases in which I'm respectively "pro-Russian" and "anti-Russian".

So what does make you to be pro-Russian in case with Odessa? Obviously, Ukrainian integrity consists for you serious problem?

"Russians genetically"? Every nation is heavily intermixed genetically with another, there is no such thing as a genetic Russian, Ukrainian or Pole.

It’s controversial. In spite of natural ethnic intermixing, there is cultural and ethnic core. Odessa “Russians” is very relative term, they have nothing to do with Novgorod Russians, for example. They are just descendent of Russians which stoked here but heavily intermixed with Jews, Turks, Moldavians and Ukrainians. However, this “Russian” part of Odessa confess “Russian” type of culture, or better to say, their distorted ideas about “Russian” culture.

Ukrainian part consists of around 500 000 of Ukrainians and is represented by Cossak “Sich” organizations and UNA-UNSO. Living of official territory of Ukraine, in some hundred miles from Kyiv, I bet they confess crystal clear Ukrainian culture. And that makes difference.

Ok, but still, it cannot be said that the Russians took that city away from Ukrainians, nor that it's ethnic Ukrainian land.

It would be correct to say, Russians and Ukrainians gained city Hadjibey from Turks military. Then it was renamed to Odessa and artificially inhabited by Jews with aim to create southern trade center of Russian empire. So, the core of Odessa consists from Turks, Russians, Ukrainians, Jews and Moldavians.

Besides, Cossacks were living in Hadjibey much earlier then it was artificially inhabited by Russians and Jews.

Now, what do we consider as ethnic territory? Odessa wasn’t inhabited by Slav tribes initially, right. Actually, in terms of “ethnic territory”, it belongs to Turks.

Now it is official territory of Ukraine and so logically they HAVE to accept language and culture. I don’t see another exit.

I'm sure that Polish troops killed many people, but I do not think there is any proof linking Jak Kazimir to them - I suspect he was busy with ruling the kingdom as such, and mass murders were the initiative of local commanders.

Let’s don’t play with the words and accept mass murderers of Ukrainians and mass murderers of Poles, initiated by supreme leaders.

... it's just a matter of your disbelief and the matter of certain political agenda among pro-OUN political circles.

It’s matter of my criticism and anyway it’s not influence of pro-OUN circles. The bigger part of information justifying the UPA was given on SBU (or SSU- Security Service of Ukraine) site or claimed by independent historians on background of SBU archives.

As for human rights violations - what kind of violations?

Well, reading British and Russian press of Kachinsky bros time (I’m not talking about period of Donald Tusk), I got clear picture of claiming political opponents and oppositional journalists as “disloyal ones”, “Kremlin agents”, etc… plus, retrospective cleansings for “communist connections” reminding about Polish variant of maccartism.

1. Tens of thousands of Polish civilians were murdered and quite obviously, their relatives were/are exactly the people most interested in determining who did this - Polish civilians lost lives, so Poles are conducting research and documentation - but it does't make this research less credible - quite the opposite.

However, this is fact – we have on-way road information what gives possibility of misuse and distortion. I still can’t use official sources because they are still silent. So we have not support of this from Ukrainian side.

Oblique information says about revenge rebellion of Ukrainian peasants, possibly directed by UPA members… This caused immediate answer of Armia Krajowa in form of repression against Ukrainians. UPA detachments obviously tried to defend those Volyn peasants from armed Poles so in this conflict suffered both Polish and Ukrainians soldiers and civilians.

This version seem to be more reliable.

AK reports, UPA's own orders, etc etc.

AK report can’t be considered as objective, they are interested persons because of own crimes in Volyn, there is not information about UPA’s own orders in SBU archives… so, it’s the lack of trustworthy information, as usually.

[Stirlitz]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

we took away it from Russians now… That’s why if you live in Ukraine, be so kind to learn the language of people whom you “represent”.

“Our” culture, buddy, is European Ukrainian culture. Yours is combined Russian-Jewish half-bred.

Everyone who lives in Ukraine have to share and respect its core.

Those guys were about the other lands and other nations. We are about our land and our nation. All the parts of Ukraine have to accept Ukrainian culture or let they get off somewhere else!

That’s why it has not right to exist on the territory of Ukraine. Believe me, soon or late it will blow up.

Max,

The least I want is to have a buddy like you, a narrow-minded diehard full of hatred and lacking any tolerance and respect for other people. Well, to be short and direct: you are a true Nazi. I don’t know if this board forbids inciting ethnic strife and calls for violence as in the last sentence of the quote (at least it supposed to stick to the current legislation of Ukraine which you openly violate), but after reading your message I can believe everything what is said about OUN-UPA as being fascists.

I am moving you to my ignore list like I did to some Russian Nazis who lambasted me in other message boards for defending my Ukrainian identity and taking pride in being a Ukrainian. I suggest that you talk to them, you will both will be pleased to find a good enemy to waste words with. Your attitude toward Odessa is actually not better than their desire to get the Crimea back to Russia. I only regret that people like you represent Ukraine on this forum. It is too bad that foreign visitors can get the wrong idea of Ukrainians as a nation of haters and nazis.

For others who can read this: whatever the chauvinists/nazis claim, we are one nation with two languages. I am a Russian-speaking Ukrainian. I am not Russian even though I speak this language as my primary one. It is something which is hard to understand not to mention accept for some people. But it is their problem. I already mentioned Canada, Switzerland and other nations so it is not something outstanding and impossible to grasp. The shameful failure of our government to reflect this situation in the law which the nazis happily exploit does not prove the contrary at all as there are thousands of other ridiculous laws in Ukraine which are neglected by everyone.

I can feel that some circles across the ocean and in the West generally are interested in splitting Ukraine into two parts, Ukrainian-speaking West Russian-speaking East, best if by means of a civil war they can be involved in supplying arms and bombing our towns like they did to Serbia. They use ignorant diehards like the one above and mercenary politicians like 99% of our government to incite animosity between Ukrainians based on the language they speak. Their dream is another Yugoslavia. But I tell you what: this will not be! Ukraine will always be a united nation of one people and two languages.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Dearest Igor,

You are talking monstrous rot. Be careful with personal labels or situation can go to administrative problems. I didn’t give you any personal labels or definitions because I don’t know you personally well. So be careful to write something about people here personally.

I gonna agree with our Polish friend, it's quite Asian trait. But it seems you are really OK with Asia.

We argue about our beliefs or disbeliefs, if you didn’t notice this yet. If I write something blunt about Odessa and language affairs in Ukraine, I don’t mean you and just you personally.

You are newbie on the board so you got to know this is truly free board where everyone expresses his opinions free – are other members agree or they aren’t. So your approval for my ideas is not required, same as overall or reciprocal consensus. These discussions exist for same process.

Also, threads as usually have not linear character so people talk about things which interest and trouble them and strict thematic compliance is not required - we are not scholars.

I want ensure I have not any relation to any nationalistic organization and I don’t involved in propaganda of any ideas except of my own ones. I am still sure in all my opinions about Odessa “special” culture, necessity of Ukrainian culture for all parts with no exception and destroying the humiliating monument to freaking Russian empress.

It may surprise you but that’s not Soviet Union, quite opposite, and so I have right to express my opinion on problems whether you like it or not. On the other hand, I don’t require you to shad up.

I doubt if you will find here understanding with cranky ideas of recreation Soviet Union, denying of European integration, pro-Kremlin propaganda and unrespectable relation to Ukrainian language. You are about to be white raven with such post-soviet ideology and excessive overestimation of own IQ level.

I really don’t care about you rumblings with Russian nationalists. As about our western Ukrainian guys from OUN-UPA, go to SBU site and read it twice. If rehabilitation comes from security services of the country what heck for do you try to intimidate us by your own fabrication and fears?

As about your ignorant ridiculous evaluation of modern Orange power and trends… I say you what, an Odessite: Ukraine will always be a united nation of one people and one language.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

So what does make you to be pro-Russian in case with Odessa? Obviously, Ukrainian integrity consists for you serious problem?

Why would be the Ukrainian integrity be a problem for me?
Personally, I think that they should be given some small level of autonomy.

It’s controversial. In spite of natural ethnic intermixing, there is cultural and ethnic core. Odessa “Russians” is very relative term, they have nothing to do with Novgorod Russians, for example.

That's perfectly normal - and for exampke, AFAIK, Galician Ukrainians differ from Carpathian Rusins - does it change anything?

They are just descendent of Russians which stoked here but heavily intermixed with Jews, Turks, Moldavians and Ukrainians.

Ukrainians as such are intermixed with Russians, Poles, Germans, etc etc...

[QUOTE
Now it is official territory of Ukraine and so logically they HAVE to accept language and culture. I don’t see another exit.
[/quote]

What about Sorbs (Serbs) in Germany, what about Belgium, Switzerland, etc etc ? Do you think that imposing language and culture on people is the only way>

Let’s don’t play with the words and accept mass murderers of Ukrainians and mass murderers of Poles, initiated by supreme leaders.

No, I see it differently - what about situations in which local commanders of the given army initiate mass murder out of their own initiative?

It’s matter of my criticism and anyway it’s not influence of pro-OUN circles. The bigger part of information justifying the UPA was given on SBU (or SSU- Security Service of Ukraine) site or claimed by independent historians on background of SBU archives.

I think the big question is: what exactly is in these archives, in terms of scale and time of the Soviet activities described in them.

I do not think there was a physical possibility of Soviet staging of the 1943 Volyn massacres, but it was very possible that "fake UPA" operations were conducted later, in 1945 for example.

I suspect that the "independent historians", are independent, but they have their own political sympathies and they prefer to let out the pro-OUN part of the message "the Soviets murdered to slander UPA", but "forgot" the mention the other part "but still, UPA did murder tens of thousands of civilians itself".

Well, reading British and Russian press of Kachinsky bros time (I’m not talking about period of Donald Tusk), I got clear picture of claiming political opponents and oppositional journalists as “disloyal ones”, “Kremlin agents”, etc… plus, retrospective cleansings for “communist connections” reminding about Polish variant of maccartism.

That was mostly an example of extremely bad relations with press, which was used by their political oponents - the Kaczynski brothers were accused of every possible wrong-doing by the media, but the same people who say "Kaczynski's are evil", have significant trouble saying what exactly did they did.

Oblique information says about revenge rebellion of Ukrainian peasants, possibly directed by UPA members… This caused immediate answer of Armia Krajowa in form of repression against Ukrainians. UPA detachments obviously tried to defend those Volyn peasants from armed Poles so in this conflict suffered both Polish and Ukrainians soldiers and civilians.

1. The available information speaks about an organised action, directed against Poles in hundreds of villages - the peasants themselves could't do it, because they had no organisations capable of doing it.

2. The mass murders had a political background linked with OUN/UPA, which wanted to create "Ukraine free from Poles".

AK report can’t be considered as objective, they are interested persons because of own crimes in Volyn,

Think about it - Polish civilians were murdered, tens of thousands of them - do you really think the AK soldiers would try to blame the murders on innocent side?
What would you do if you were an Ukrainian guerilla and you would see a massacred Ukrainian village - would you try to blame a innocent side, or rather try to give the best, most truthful information to your superiors and get revenge on the side who really did this? I think the answer is obvious.

[Stirlitz]

I don’t really want to take part in the flames any longer… as I am ignoring one of the primary speakers here anyway and I don’t care what lies he can disseminate about me… I am just wondering if his calls for violence are OK in this forum but this does not matter. The only thing is I wonder… I was listening to a Swiss radio station which plays classical music:

http://stream-2.ssatr.ch:80/rsc/mp3

and I can hear that they speak now in German, now in French. And they are a united nation. Belgium comes to mind too where they speak Dutch (official) 60%, French (official) 40%, German (official) less than 1%, legally bilingual (Dutch and French)…

ONE PER CENT speak German yet it is an official language!

Is Ukraine really up to the mark as other European countries? So far the answer is NO… With at least 40% speaking Russian and it is not the official language.

What’s interesting, I am sure that no one would call a German-speaking Swiss a German. Yet some people claim I am Russian even though I live in Ukraine just because I speak Russian. Stupid.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Stirlitz

I am just wondering if his calls for violence are OK in this forum but this does not matter.

I don’t call anyone for any form of violence on this forum and I didn’t that ever… what you see is free discussion where either you or others are given right to speak. However, you can’t control opinions expressed even if they are blunt and straight or you find them unfavorable.

You obviously cultivated for a long of time some kind of sovok (post-soviet) way of thinking so logically you got some shock.

Note though you began our conversation referring the Hoebbels quote about lie to me while discussing innocent and tedious economical matters. I consider this as bad sigh. To blame people for irrelative things is rather heavy insult.

Your ideas seemed to be extremely moot so logically they became a matter of debate… same as other folks question my moot opinions if they want… you see this first-hand.

I don’t think we violate someone’s rights having Ukrainian as only official language… it was oppressed for centuries so it is kind of historic justice. Yes, there are “artificial nations” in Europe who smooth things over with such multilingual policy. Do we really need that? There many nations in Europe who have only one official historic language having numerous foreign diasporas on the board - no one blames Germany or France for clear pro-national politics. So this is not argument. It’s possible to do this or that way, a matter of choice.

I really don’t think someone violates rights of Russian-speaking inhabitants of Odessa - but how about they violate rights of Ukrainian speaking inhabitants? You independently displaced recent balance with mentioned monument, activity of chauvinistic TV channel “ATV”, systematic ignoring the needs of Ukraine-speaking Odessites… so this everything is natural reaction.

Even living in Ukraine we can’t change many of that… but you can’t take away the right to discuss such things.

[Stirlitz]

And the thread is… you won’t believe it. Help in Odessa, etc. Porssibly somebody needs help to blow up the momument to Catherine the 2nd in Odessa or drive out anyone who dares to speak Russian there? Of course, all of that means no violence

Well I still believe it was something else…