Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

It seems you just try to spot the contradictions.

Yes, that was largely my intention.

We know you as rather anti-Russian guy so I don't understand, why you defend this agressive minority. An "knight's move"

I think that it depends what do you mean by "anti-Russian" - I'm not a fan of the Russians, but it does't mean I think they are always wrong.

Yes, right. Agree. Sometimes we behaive ourselves as bad guys. Is it possible to be an angel all the time? Sometimes Ukrainians are just tired to be the angels.

What I wanted to point out is not some "great evil" done by Ukrainians, but the falsehood of the "myth of innocence" sometimes appearing among Ukrainians - I mean that myth presenting Ukrainians in contrast vs Poles or Russians, in terms of morality and "agressor vs innocent victim mentality".

It generally reminds me of Poland in the 20s and 30s - after over a century of fighting for freedom, despite diffent kinds of noble-sounding "ideals", Poles did't hesitate about denying freedom to (for example) Ukrainians - this is pretty the same, many Ukrainians speak about freedom, democracy, etc. but obviously this "freedom" does't apply to for example Odessan Russians.

I think it's a king of shauvinistic line "West-East". Germans who are westerners in comparison with Poles, consider Poles as asiatic non-europeans. That's your lovely relativity theory.

Well, I think that's the way it is - at most times throughout history, Germany was richer and more developed than Poland, and Poland was richer and more developed than Ukraine - that was the usual trend and that's how it is right now, so I think that such theories have a pretty good grounding in reality.

BTW, [in real life] I really see Asiatic cultural traits in Russians and Ukrainians, I don't say this to insult neither of this nations, but I really see a certain difference.

Bigger level of democracy and freedom of speach. It's no always examplary here with human rights but - do you see? - I say it bluntly.

For example Japan or South Korea have got a better level of democracy than Ukraine does - but I would't call them "European", which proves that having a lower level of democracy and freedom of speech doest not make Russia less European than Ukraine - only less free and less democratic.

As George Michael sings, "its the same just the same". We got them and now we make them Ukrainians. Let they lament. It's Ukraine already.

Ok, but in your earlier posts you wrote something about Ukrainian "core", about European Ukrainian culture, etc - what is the moral/cultural core of Ukrainians, is there such a thing at all, or is it simply "who cares about what is right".

This is point where we never will agree. I think they are heroes which fought for independence against Poles, Russians, Germans, etc... If Poles or Jews think they are war criminals, it doesn't matter very much, I really don't care.

So... you think that murdering women and children does not make somebody a war criminal?

Also, if you would have (or do have) a child, then how would you tell the child about UPA? Would you tell it partial truth, omitting the "inconvinient" details, or would you tell it openly "the UPA murdered women and children, but I think they were heroes anyway".

Don't forget all the honored military heroes are war criminals in reality - only thing which differs them is big bright medals given by happy crying Motherland.

What do you mean? AFAIK Most modern "military heroes" were killing armed opponents, most people seem to agree that it's something else than killing defenceless civilians.


Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Yes, that was largely my intention.

So did you come here to pay me back for our earlier historic discussions? Fee, it's so... hmm...comic.

OK, now I got what do you mean and so I can answer you something more coherent. I failed to spot the sense in your first post and that' why I answered symmetrically.

What I wanted to point out is not some "great evil" done by Ukrainians, but the falsehood of the "myth of innocence" sometimes appearing among Ukrainians

Only I want is to agree with you. There are not completely innocent nations so I want to ensure you we do not support any myths about that. Note though it seems historically they were fighting for our own lands, Ukrainians were not fighting much for other nations’ lands.

The belonging of south of Ukraine and Crimea is really the weakest point. These lands were taken away by Russian empire from Turks, in cooperation with Cossacks. So it seems Russians have some rights for these lands… theoretically, but not practically.

The agreements of border immunity refuses such rights, you got to know that.

this is pretty the same, many Ukrainians speak about freedom, democracy, etc. but obviously this "freedom" does't apply to for example Odessan Russians

Where do you see their rights abuse? They speak Russian, they confess they are peculated, they set monuments they want.

They are minority in comparison of all Ukraine nation, but Ukrainians are minority in Odessa. Why does no one talk their rights are abused hard? Odessa Ukrainians live on official territory of Ukraine in Odessa but the monument to Ekaterina II humiliates them (as the rest of Ukrainians). So what I see is the abuse of human rights of Ukrainians.

This rumble around "Odessa nation" is not about Russian language or ethnic specifics on the whole, it’s about the monument. Ekaterina II also initiated some Polish Partitions – will Poles set the monument her ever?

BTW, [in real life] I really see Asiatic cultural traits in Russians and Ukrainians, I don't say this to insult neither of this nations, but I really see a certain difference.

Michael, you are completely free to see everything you want. I think Poles look for any “punching bag”, to make profitable comparisons and to hide own numerous problems, criticizing someone else.

Well, having 4 present world boxing champions in Kyiv, Ukrainians will not likely agree to be someone’s “punching bag”. Any superiority of Poles over Ukrainians is the matter of Polish propaganda, it’s not what really exists.

So you just repeat Polish chauvinist ideas.

For example Japan or South Korea have got a better level of democracy than Ukraine does - but I would't call them "European"

The region where I live is established in very center of Europe and so Ukraine is also in the center of Europe. So this is democracy plus geographic location.

But I think it’s not Poles got to decide: are we Europeans or not. It’s the competence of EU and Brussels on the whole. We have big friends there as Germany and France and they shift us in – btw, as potential lever against of ever-rebellious Poland too.

But I hope our economic co-operation will grow because for us here in Ukraine, Poland is first of all supplier of cheap quality meat. This is our biggest interest at the moment.

what is the moral/cultural core of Ukrainians, is there such a thing at all, or is it simply "who cares about what is right".

The idea is following: if this is official territory of Ukraine, people have to use Ukrainian language. They can keep their national cultures and even more, we help them develop these cultures. But if they just refuse that all, it’s already area of criminal affairs.

Btw, setting the humiliating monuments shows the big number of rights, doesn’t it?

So... you think that murdering women and children does not make somebody a war criminal?

You are behind the times. UPA is rehabilitated on the highest official levels. Some former soldiers even got various signs of honor – quite officially, right in Kyiv.

The reasons? SBU, Ukrainian intelligence, opened all secret KGB archives about the UPA, thousands of volumes. They show, first, UPA was fighting for Ukrainian independence against the Germany and Soviets. Second, all the delirium about “murdering women and children” was falsified by KGB directly, these document are very clear. So they really were fighting just with armed opponents and so they are military heroes.

As about some possible Polish sources, they are likely same fake as KGB insinuations and I can’t see how I could believe them.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

So did you come here to pay me back for our earlier historic discussions? Fee, it's so... hmm...comic.

Not "pay back" - why would I want to "pay back" and for what?

The agreements of border immunity refuses such rights, you got to know that.

Yes, but what I had in mind is not a correction of borders, simply a bit more tolerant and respectful view toward those people - from your post, it looked like you despise them.

This rumble around "Odessa nation" is not about Russian language or ethnic specifics on the whole, it’s about the monument. Ekaterina II also initiated some Polish Partitions – will Poles set the monument her ever?

I think that generally Poles tend not to set monuments to mass murderers and similiar people - so for example neither Ekaterina, neither the OUN/UPA members would be accepted.

In Ukraine, there's a both tragic and comic situation in which one ethnic group
tends to glorify one set of mass murderers, while a different ethnic group tends to glorify another set of mass murderers - and each of these two groups think it's better, each villify the other, while in reality both are heavily lacking in any kind of ethic standarts.

Michael, you are completely free to see everything you want. I think Poles look for any “punching bag”, to make profitable comparisons and to hide own numerous problems, criticizing someone else.

1. I do not think I'm looking for a "punching bag", I instead think you are not willing to look at the situation in a objective way.

2. I must admit I do not know much about "Poland's numerous problems", I believe Poland's problems are on average level.

3. Poland was not in the discussion at the beginning, I joined in due to some things which have strucked me as wrong - in what way would it be hiding problems?

Well, having 4 present world boxing champions in Kyiv, Ukrainians will not likely agree to be someone’s “punching bag”.

I definitively agree - although propably not in the way you like.

First of all, the roots of the Ukrainian culture are rural ones (one generation ago, cities of Ukraine were populated by Poles, Jews, etc) and such background does not help any self-reflection.

Second, I do think that Ukrainians have this attitude you describe ("not agree to be a punching bag", but (unlike you?) I do not see it positively - I rather think that a more proper description would be "lack of maturity to admit uncomfortable truth", or something like that - and BTW, IMO it's the common trait of Ukrainians and Russians, I know no other European nationality with so much tendency to react with hostility to any negative statements.

Any superiority of Poles over Ukrainians is the matter of Polish propaganda, it’s not what really exists.

I have no idea what your values might be - the term "superiority" has no meaning without giving the criteria, but meanwhile, is it really hard to see that Poland is a richer, more developed and more democratic country than Ukraine (and poorer and less developed than Germany)?

I have no problem admitting certain things about Poland and Germany, why do you have a problem admitting the same about Ukraine and Poland?

The region where I live is established in very center of Europe and so Ukraine is also in the center of Europe. So this is democracy plus geographic location.

Yes, but culturally, you have strong links with Russians - and if they are not European, than (to a smaller) extent, neither are you. (culturally)

But I think it’s not Poles got to decide: are we Europeans or not. It’s the competence of EU and Brussels on the whole. We have big friends there as Germany and France and they shift us in – btw, as potential lever against of ever-rebellious Poland too.

1. I thought we were speaking about culture, not about EU entrance.

2. I don't see how Ukraine-in-EU could be "a lever" against Poland, and in what aspect.

3. Your statement about "big friends as Germany and France" is very, very curious and I do not think it has any basis in reality.

Btw, setting the humiliating monuments shows the big number of rights, doesn’t it?

Yes, it does - but I was generally criticising your attitude toward the Odessan Russians, not the treatment of national minorities by the Ukrainian State.

You are behind the times. UPA is rehabilitated on the highest official levels. Some former soldiers even got various signs of honor – quite officially, right in Kyiv.

Is it a healthy sign when a goverment decorates members of a genocidal organisation?

Second, all the delirium about “murdering women and children” was falsified by KGB directly, these document are very clear.

Wrong, this is another case of distortion of history conducted by Ukrainian nationalists - there were cases of provocation done by KGB, but the vast majority of mass murders of civilians done by UPA was indeed done by UPA.

As about some possible Polish sources, they are likely same fake as KGB insinuations and I can’t see how I could believe them.

So basically you think that literally hundreds of Polish survivors lie and that AK internal reports also lie?


Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Yes, but what I had in mind is not a correction of borders, simply a bit more tolerant and respectful view toward those people - from your post, it looked like you despise them.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

As for Russia, most Poles hate and despise Russia and/or Russians to smaller or larger extent, this way or another.
Some hate Russia as a state, saying that individually, Russians are normal people who live in a ****ed up, criminal state/country, other hate both Russia AND Russians, others do not hate but consider Russians to be primitive barbarians - I'd say these 3 groups constitute about 50-90% of Polish society, with the majority of the remaining Poles being simply neutral toward Russia, not positive.

No comments, it’s from thread “Russia and Ukraine get back together” where I eventually defended Russia. Your main your idea was (and is) Russians are cultural Asians and genetic criminals. I still not agree because it is flat exaggeration.

I think that generally Poles tend not to set monuments to mass murderers and similiar people

And I think majority of Polish kings were mass murderers and they have monuments. But as said before, if the Motherland gives to a killer big bright medal, he becomes a hero.

I know no other European nationality with so much tendency to react with hostility to any negative statements

Originally Posted by Moses2007

Poland’s behaviour in debating of EU Constitutional Treaty was disgusting! The Poles seemed to be unable to cast their eye into future. They are actually stuck in the past blaming Germany in Nazi reprisals which reduced the population of Poland drastically. As the result Poland isn’t as weighty in EU as Germany. Hypocritical Poles must be reminded that those were Poles as well who participated in eliminating of a three million Jewish Diaspora in Poland in WWII! And those Jews who managed to stay alive were then kicked out of the socialist Poland.

Sick and tired of those ever grumbling Poles and those ugly looking Kachinsky’s.

This is reaction of pure German on some negative Polish statements about Germany. Obviously, you just found another brotherly to Ukrainians nation with such tendency.

is it really hard to see that Poland is a richer, more developed and more democratic country than Ukraine (and poorer and less developed than Germany)?

I only can agree that life level in Poland is higher then in Ukraine. Is it more democratic? Definitely not. Well, just recently British press was yelling about “nationalist regime” and political repressions so I really doubt.

Yes, but culturally, you have strong links with Russians

That’s new to me, you roughly mix Carpathian Rusins (Latin term for local Ukrainians) and Russians. We have good relations with Kyiv Ukrainians, Russians, Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Americans… this list will take whole the page.

Via your twisted logic, if we keep friendly relations with US Americans (we do) so this makes us non-Europeans. You fall into syllogisms over again.

Poland does not hold custom house on our road to Europe. The ways are numerous and Poland plays minor role in this process. I guess, it has sense for us to work with bigger guys in EU… and we do. It seems our President and Prime-minister already live in Brussels.

Is it a healthy sign when a goverment decorates members of a genocidal organisation?

Actually, there are not any proofs of UPA genocides in Ukraine so they can be decorated even by the Pope.

I just can repeat – documents of KGB show about military resistance to Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia. So it was military anti-totalitarian organization. There are not evidences of genocide among civilians in Ukraine, these cases were organized by KGB agents entirely.

These archives are open now for many historic scientists so it can’t be misunderstanding.

So basically you think that literally hundreds of Polish survivors lie and that AK internal reports also lie?

Yes, I think it is forged.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

No comments, it’s from thread “Russia and Ukraine get back together” where I eventually defended Russia. Your main your idea was (and is) Russians are cultural Asians and genetic criminals. I still not agree because it is flat exaggeration.

1) In the fragment you've quoted I speak about 4 different kinds of opinions popular among Poles, so I'm not sure what kind of link do you see between that quote and the question of my personal opinion.

2) I do not believe in anything genetic, I do see Asian cultural elements in Russians and Ukrainians, but that's purely the matter of culture.

And I think majority of Polish kings were mass murderers and they have monuments. But as said before, if the Motherland gives to a killer big bright medal, he becomes a hero.

Could you explain which specific cases of mass murder can be attributed to specific Polish kings?

This is reaction of pure German on some negative Polish statements about Germany. Obviously, you just found another brotherly to Ukrainians nation with such tendency.

I think this quote is a quote from some kind of general/political forum, dealing with current events, while I was referrring to the fact that IMO Germans, Poles, etc generally do not deny their warcrimes from the past with such vigor as Ukrainians or Russians do.

I only can agree that life level in Poland is higher then in Ukraine. Is it more democratic? Definitely not. Well, just recently British press was yelling about “nationalist regime” and political repressions so I really doubt.

I do not think that the British press is the best source for analisys in this case.

Look for example at "Freedom House" - a US organisation measuring the level of democracy among the world ( freedomhouse.org: Country Report ):

Poland:

Political Rights Score: 1
Civil Liberties Score: 1
Status: Free

Ukraine:

Political Rights Score: 3
Civil Liberties Score: 2
Status: Free

Russia:

Political Rights Score: 6
Civil Liberties Score: 5
Status: Not Free

That’s new to me, you roughly mix Carpathian Rusins (Latin term for local Ukrainians) and Russians. We have good relations with Kyiv Ukrainians, Russians, Germans, Italians, Hungarians, Americans… this list will take whole the page.

I know only a few things about Rusins, but obviously one cannot deny the obvious cultural and ethnic links between Russians and Ukrainians - these are two distinct nations, that's true - but very, very related ones.

Via your twisted logic, if we keep friendly relations with US Americans (we do) so this makes us non-Europeans. You fall into syllogisms over again.

I was referring to cultural links, not to friendly or unfriendly relations.

Actually, there are not any proofs of UPA genocides in Ukraine so they can be decorated even by the Pope.

What about proof of ethnic cleansing conducted by UPA on Polish civilian population in Volyn, which is now in Ukraine?

There are not evidences of genocide among civilians in Ukraine, these cases were organized by KGB agents entirely.

I'm afraid you have allowed yourself to believe in the propaganda of the pro-OUN circles: the majority of the massacres of Polish civilians in Volyn happened in 1943, when there was no troops there - the Germans ruled the settlements, while UPA largely controlled the forests.

Could you explain how could the Soviets murder tens of thousands of Polish civilians without simply being caught, by either Germans or UPA?

Yes, I think it is forged.

By whom, how, when? How could one forge testimonies of hundreds of survivors, how could one cheat AK members of the units from for example Volyn, who operated in the region when the mass murders did happen?

I do believe that some cases of Soviet provocation did indeed happen, especially in present Polish Galicia, around 1945, etc - but in 1943 Volyn, there seems to be a lot of confusion on the Ukrainian side about the scale and conditions in which the mass murders were commited.



Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

1) In the fragment you've quoted I speak about 4 different kinds of opinions popular among Poles, so I'm not sure what kind of link do you see between that quote and the question of my personal opinion.

It’s enough to know “most Poles hate and despise Russia and/or Russians to smaller or larger extent, this way or another”. You spent then 10 pages proving this point so I wonder such rapid change of your opinion is case with Odessa Russians.

However, you are still wrong about “Odessa Russians”. In reality, there is combined Russian-Jewish-Ukrainian community, with own specific outlook, language and culture. I think those “Russians” are more Jews already and they have not big relation to authentic ethnic Russians. Besides, they live on the south of Ukraine hundreds years so I don’t think they are still Russians genetically - may be they hold just surnames and fictional ethnic self-realization.

I would say they are separate Ukrainian sub ethnos already so this is internal affairs and not matter of Ukraine-Russian relations anyway.

They are wrong even about Ekaterina established this city. The Turk city Hadjibey existed few centuries before so she just renamed it to Odessa. She is not founder anyhow.

So you see, entire outlook of Odessites is fake, from A to Z.

Could you explain which specific cases of mass murder can be attributed to specific Polish kings?

It’s stilted and awkward, but… Jan Kazimir (1609 — 1672) fought with Cossacks of Bogdan Chmelnitsky during Ukrainian Liberation War. Ukraine history has information and evidences not just about military murders but also about murders of civilian Ukrainians. On the other nand, I would not refuse same actions of Cossacks in Poland.

However, both Jan and Bogdan got their big bright medals and enjoy hero status.

while I was referrring to the fact that IMO Germans, Poles, etc generally do not deny their warcrimes from the past with such vigor as Ukrainians or Russians do.

This is exactly the reaction on mentioning of German war crimes against the Poland during debating of EU Constitutional Treaty. However, German crimes are proved, meanwhile Ukrainian war crimes are purest fiction. Read further.

I do not think that the British press is the best source for analisys in this case.

Look for example at "Freedom House" - a US organisation measuring the level of democracy among the world

Well, rather interesting site though a bit biased. I don’t think ranking of this US organization is completely fair. Throgh the lines of Polish situation description it shows approval of Poland-EU numerous conflicts. I think many fact of human rights violation were not mentioned here intentionally.

Besides, UK is much closer to Poland so I think they get information faster and directly, including data from Polish press. That’s why I still count British publication about nationalism, cleanings of opposition and repressions of Bloody Twins.

What about proof of ethnic cleansing conducted by UPA on Polish civilian population in Volyn, which is now in Ukraine?

Now we move to the most interesting point of discussion, the Ukrainian Insurgent Army and its forged crimes.

This is the most comprehensive source of information. Note though Wiki is written by users freely so it is not scientific historic source:

Ukrainian Insurgent Army - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have no information about those crimes, supported by Ukrainian official sources. All information about Volyn conflict comes from Poland so doubtfully it is completely objective and trustworthy. However, such actions of UPA in 1943 (this everything is not proved) may had character of military conflict with some Polish detachments (Armia Krajowa, Home Army) which were active in Volyn. And so, it doesn’t come beyond another military conflict.

However, there is version Poles on Volyn were murdered by Ukrainian peasants as revenge for violent polonization and previous crimes of Polish authority against Ukrainian civilians.

There are evidences about thousands of Ukrainians murdered by Armia Krajowa in Volyn too, obviously as answer on this anti-polish rebellion of Ukrainian peasants.

UNIAN - SBU declassifies documents proving OUN-UPA not connected with anti-Jewish actions

Accordingly to this information, UPA is not guilty in mass murders of Jews in Lviv in 1943. Similarly, the facts about Volyn “crimes” soon may be acclaimed as forged.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

It’s enough to know “most Poles hate and despise Russia and/or Russians to smaller or larger extent, this way or another”. You spent then 10 pages proving this point so I wonder such rapid change of your opinion is case with Odessa Russians.

There is no change of opinion, but I see a different case here - for example, Odessa and Chechnya are two cases in which I'm respectively "pro-Russian" and "anti-Russian".

I think those “Russians” are more Jews already and they have not big relation to authentic ethnic Russians. Besides, they live on the south of Ukraine hundreds years so I don’t think they are still Russians genetically - may be they hold just surnames and fictional ethnic self-realization.

"Russians genetically"? Every nation is heavily intermixed genetically with another, there is no such thing as a genetic Russian, Ukrainian or Pole.

They are wrong even about Ekaterina established this city. The Turk city Hadjibey existed few centuries before so she just renamed it to Odessa. She is not founder anyhow.

Ok, but still, it cannot be said that the Russians took that city away from Ukrainians, nor that it's ethnic Ukrainian land.

It’s stilted and awkward, but… Jan Kazimir (1609 — 1672) fought with Cossacks of Bogdan Chmelnitsky during Ukrainian Liberation War. Ukraine history has information and evidences not just about military murders but also about murders of civilian Ukrainians.

I'm sure that Polish troops killed many people, but I do not think there is any proof linking Jak Kazimir to them - I suspect he was busy with ruling the kingdom as such, and mass murders were the initiative of local commanders.

This is exactly the reaction on mentioning of German war crimes against the Poland during debating of EU Constitutional Treaty. However, German crimes are proved, meanwhile Ukrainian war crimes are purest fiction.

Actually, Ukrainian war crimes against Polish civilian population are proven, in a way sufficient to convince professional historians - it's just a matter of your disbelief and the matter of certain political agenda among pro-OUN political circles.

Well, rather interesting site though a bit biased. I don’t think ranking of this US organization is completely fair. Throgh the lines of Polish situation description it shows approval of Poland-EU numerous conflicts. I think many fact of human rights violation were not mentioned here intentionally.

The Poland-EU conflicts usually have something to do with politics, much less with human rights - and the Freedom House gives "1-1" to Germany, while giving worser scores to US allies such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia or Israel.

As for human rights violations - what kind of violations?

I have no information about those crimes, supported by Ukrainian official sources. All information about Volyn conflict comes from Poland so doubtfully it is completely objective and trustworthy. However, such actions of UPA in 1943 (this everything is not proved) may had character of military conflict with some Polish detachments (Armia Krajowa, Home Army) which were active in Volyn. And so, it doesn’t come beyond another military conflict.

1. Tens of thousands of Polish civilians were murdered and quite obviously, their relatives were/are exactly the people most interested in determining who did this - Polish civilians lost lives, so Poles are conducting research and documentation - but it does't make this research less credible - quite the opposite.

2. As for "another military conflict" - many of these civilians were little children - do you think that for example 7 years old kids killed by UPA qualify as military targets?

However, there is version Poles on Volyn were murdered by Ukrainian peasants as revenge for violent polonization and previous crimes of Polish authority against Ukrainian civilians.

In a way yes, although the official reason given by UPA orders is "cleansing Ukraine of Poles", not revenge.

There are evidences about thousands of Ukrainians murdered by Armia Krajowa in Volyn too, obviously as answer on this anti-polish rebellion of Ukrainian peasants.

Yes, it's estimated that altogether, about 10-20 thousands of Ukrainians were killed by AK and Polish self-defense militia.

Accordingly to this information, UPA is not guilty in mass murders of Jews in Lviv in 1943. Similarly, the facts about Volyn “crimes” soon may be acclaimed as forged.

There are many cases of mass murders both proven and disproven, I don't know much about the mass murders of Lviv in 1943, but I do not think that the UPA's participation in mass murders of Polish civilians will be disproved - there is too much confirmation from many survivors, AK reports, UPA's own orders, etc etc.



Michael