Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

I'm positively in shock. Russian guides represent Ukraine which language officially is UKRAINIAN, ethnic and historic language is UKRAINIAN and the most used language is UKRAINIAN.

Hundreds years of struggle for independence from Moskow empire, blood of our patriotes, hundreds of repressed ones, 17 years of independent Ukraine - and what do we have as result?

We are represented by Russian translators.

Horrible, I have no words. Here, on the West of Ukraine we would never let it be. It's just mattter of national self-respect.

[Stirlitz]

First of all, I come from Odessa which is a city of many cultures, it is not entirely Russian, nor Ukrainian, nor Jewish or any other. However, Russian is our main language just like English is for America even though they are not all Englishmen there. Likewise, we are not Russians, we are Odessites.

And, however hard for some people to acknowledge, about half Ukraine speaks Russian. But it does not mean they are Russian. They are Russian speaking Ukrainians like there can be English speaking Canadians or French speaking ones, nevertheless they are not English and they are not French, they are Canadians. I am not Russian, I am proud to be Ukrainian, but my mother tongue is Russian and I cannot do anything about it, I am not going to start speaking and thinking in another language just because someone believes that this is the right thing for me to do. It is their belief, not mine.

But I don’t think that it is worth to start flames especially in this thread.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Odessa is not entirely Ukrainian city and not entirely Russian? Ho-ho-ho.

Did you ever see the map of Ukraine? It’s definitely not Russian city though you guys desperately want it to be. Geographically it is still Ukraine.

The problem of Odessa is there are almost no ethnic Ukrainians there. This city consists of Russians, Jews, combinations of them and few exotic nations.

This is the biggest reason why Odessites violently resist Ukrainian culture and Ukrainian language and that’s why you call yourself “Russian translator”. No one needs Ukrainian language in Russian-Jewish city and that’s horror.

The most offensive to Ukraine is not language specifics though… the real shame is the recently set monument to Russian Empress Ekaterina II who established the Odessa. This bloody beast destroyed and prohibited Ukrainian Cossacks, crushed the rests of Ukrainian independence, turned Ukraine into regular part of Russia and took away all the liberties from free Ukrainians, turning them to serfs and slaves of Russian feudalists.

The monument to this monster stands in the center of Odessa and Odessites are proud of that (the idea is supported by 75% of Odessites).

This is what vexes Ukrainians most of all. It’s same as to stand monument to Hitler in the center of any Israeli city. No one would dare do that and is seems Ukraine just lacks the real heroes to simply explode this freaking monument of our shame.

[Stirlitz]

> Did you ever see the map of Ukraine?

Did you ever see the map of Ukraine 300 years ago? The area where Odessa is was never Ukraine then. Of course, if you are a chauvinist (which looks to be the case), you can of course claim that it was Ukraine since Kiev Rus… as well as the rest of Europe and the Crimea but it is not true. Ukrainian territories lay to the north, and this region was taken from the Turks by the Russian Empire in the 18th century, when Ukraine was part of it already.

> It’s definitely not Russian city though you guys desperately want it to be. Geographically it is still Ukraine.

Did I say it was a Russian city? Can you read? Odessa is Odessa in the first place. It was founded by Russians, that’s for sure. Right now it is in Ukraine geographically, who can deny that. I am personally glad it is.

But who is desperate there is a question. We might be desperate to preserve our culture, but there can be nothing wrong with it. But you are obviously desperate to impose your culture on us and this is a real shame. It only makes us renounce it.

> The problem of Odessa is there are almost no ethnic Ukrainians there. This city consists of Russians, Jews, combinations of them and few exotic nations.

No. First of all, it is not a problem. It is a feature of Odessa that it is a small nation which was made up of many other nations. Right, Russians and Jews were probably the majority. Yet Ukrainians were not the last. At any rate, a real Odessite is an Odessite in the first place, and only then come his roots, be it Russian or Ukrainian. We even speak a special language here which is not 100% Russian.

> This is the biggest reason why Odessites violently resist Ukrainian culture

The biggest reason is we do not like anything which is imposed on us against our will. We are not a tribe in Africe you come to save and baptize to the modern civilization. We already have a history and culture to be proud of (which is far richer and more diverse than that of Transcarpathia actually by the way) and we do not need it replaced. It is a shame to act like Europeans of the former centuries who tried to convert other nations into their religion and culture.

> that’s why you call yourself “Russian translator”. No one needs Ukrainian language in Russian-Jewish city and that’s horror.

I call myself a Russian translator because my native language is Russian. I was born with that. There is no horror about that. There is also no horror if no one needs French in Vancouver, yet it is the official language of Canada. Let me remind that the Russian language and the Russian empire is not the same thing, like, as I said above, English is not necessarily associated with the United Kingdom, and there can be English speaking people who are not Britons and have nothing to do with the British Empire.

> the real shame is the recently set monument to Russian Empress Ekaterina II who established the Odessa.

Do you read what you write? It is a shame to set a monument to the city founder? Are you sure?

Besides, it was not set up. It was simply restored being torn down by the Commies. Whoever she was, it is our history. I am glad that Odessa is gaining back what it lost between 1917 and 1991.

And, we in Odessa might think that Bandera and others were criminals and nazis. But we don’t care if you set up monuments to them in your cities. It is your culture, your history. Likewise, we are OK if Georgians have monuments to Stalin in Georgia. It is up to them.

But let us decide ourselves too!!

> This bloody beast destroyed and prohibited Ukrainian Cossacks, crushed the rests of Ukrainian independence, turned Ukraine into regular part of Russia and took away all the liberties from free Ukrainians, turning them to serfs and slaves of Russian feudalists.

It is an opinion which may be right or wrong but there are lots of different opinions on Bandera too as I said.

> It’s same as to stand monument to Hitler in the center of any Israeli city.

It is an utterly incorrect comparison. Having a monument to Ekaterina in Lvov might be that, but Odessa is not Lvov. Have a look at the map which you want me to see.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Stirlitz

Did you ever see the map of Ukraine 300 years ago

What I mean is when you look at the map of Ukraine you see Odessa is Ukraine NOW. I don’t care what 300 years ago was there. I don’t care about 300 years old maps. Let the Russians conquered it from Turks then, we took away it from Russians now.

That’s why if you live in Ukraine, be so kind to learn the language of people whom you “represent”.

But who is desperate there is a question. We might be desperate to preserve our culture, but there can be nothing wrong with it. But you are obviously desperate to impose your culture on us and this is a real shame. It only makes us renounce it.

“Our” culture, buddy, is European Ukrainian culture. Yours is combined Russian-Jewish half-bred.

At any rate, a real Odessite is an Odessite in the first place, and only then come his roots, be it Russian or Ukrainian. We even speak a special language here which is not 100% Russian.

It gives big hopes. So you say your language is not 100% Russian. I bet you even studied few Ukrainian words.

The biggest reason is we do not like anything which is imposed on us against our will.

You live on the official territory of Ukraine where Ukrainians consist 70% of population. So why do you consider Ukrainian culture and language as something “imposed on us against the will”? Who are those “us”? It’s just ridiculous. We are the nation, we have national identity, pride, culture and language.

Everyone who lives in Ukraine have to share and respect its core.

So you live on Ukraine and you glad you do (don’t laugh my slippers, it’s so fake) but Ukrainian language is something imposed on you against your will. That’s absurd.

We already have a history and culture to be proud of (which is far richer and more diverse than that of Transcarpathia actually by the way) and we do not need it replaced.

You just have no idea what are you talking about because you don’t know much about Ukraine. I guess that’s why you didn’t let them impose on you Ukrainian history. The Uzhgorod (893) is 360 years older then Lviv (1256) and it is one of the oldest Ukrainian cities.

The edict of Ekaterina II about foundation of Odessa (originally Hadgybey) refers just to… 1794.

Ancient city? When Transcarpathia was built upon by stone castles of noble Slav and Hungarian Princes, Odessa (Hadgybey) was just a small wood-shed. I’m sure local Turks used it as toilet.

It is a shame to act like Europeans of the former centuries who tried to convert other nations into their religion and culture.

Those guys were about the other lands and other nations. We are about our land and our nation. All the parts of Ukraine have to accept Ukrainian culture or let they get off somewhere else!

I call myself a Russian translator because my native language is Russian. I was born with that. There is no horror about that.

I have not problems with Russian people. When Russians are in Russia, they speak Russian and confess own culture. I respect that.

When we, Ukrainians, are in Ukraine we also speak Ukrainian language and confess our culture. Why heck have we got to speak other language and confess other culture on the native land?

Just read Russia.com board. Does someone claim he is “Ukrainian Interpreter/ Guide in Russia”? That’s absurd. But you act exactly this way.

Do you read what you write? It is a shame to set a monument to the city founder? Are you sure?

Yeah, I read what I write, be sure. Some Russian cities as Kazan were established by Tatar khans. Do Russians set monument to those Asians?

If the city is established by bloody monster that destroyed the independence of Ukraine and murdered thousands of Ukrainians, we have not any moral right to set monuments to such beasts.

This city was built by hands of Ukrainian serfs which were free people just recently. Every stone there yells about ethnic humiliation of Ukrainians. Ekaterina II projected it as southern trade center of Russian empire, so she inhabited it by Jews. That’s why even modern Odessa Jews love and worship her.

Do Ukrainians have reasons to love her for given serfdom? I believe, we have not such reasons, but we have many reasons to damn her.

And, we in Odessa might think that Bandera and others were criminals and nazis.

You are complete ignoramus. Jews are the only ones who consider Stephan Bandera as nazi now. He is sincere Ukrainian, the best son and real hero of Ukraine. We fight for independence 17 years, including fights with internal enemies. He was fighting for independence of Ukraine at the beginning of 20th century.

So what’s wrong here? We do the same things, we care about survival of Ukraine.

How dare you to compare Ukrainian heroes with Ukraine-haters and Ukraine-murderers as Ekaterina II ?!!

But let us decide ourselves too!!

The majority rules, not minority, even if it is democracy. Your strange half-blooded “Odessa nation” got to stop challenging right of Ukrainians to rule our own country, because it’s Ukraine from border to border, with no exception.

> It’s same as to stand monument to Hitler in the center of any Israeli city.

It is an utterly incorrect comparison.

There are two iron-clad facts:

1. In 1775, Ekaterina II destroyed the famed Zaporozhian Sich (Zaporozhian Fort), the last bastion of Cossack independence in Ukraine.

2. Then the Ekaterina II extended serfdom to the traditionally free Ukrainian lands.

The hate to Ekaterina II unites Western, Central and Eastern Ukraine. Actually, it’s not just monument to repressive Russian monarchy, first of all it’s monument to ethnic humiliation of Ukrainians.

That’s why it has not right to exist on the territory of Ukraine. Believe me, soon or late it will blow up.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Hundreds years of struggle for independence from Moskow empire, blood of our patriotes, hundreds of repressed ones, 17 years of independent Ukraine - and what do we have as result?

We are represented by Russian translators.

I think that in in this particular case, it might have less to do with the things you've mentioned, and more with the fact that Odessa (and some other parts of today state of Ukraine) never was Ukrainian in ethnic and cultural terms.

What I mean is when you look at the map of Ukraine you see Odessa is Ukraine NOW. I don’t care what 300 years ago was there. I don’t care about 300 years old maps. Let the Russians conquered it from Turks then, we took away it from Russians now.

That’s why if you live in Ukraine, be so kind to learn the language of people whom you “represent”.

Do you notice that [in this aspect] you want to treat them (the Russian minority) EXACTLY in the same way in which Russians, Poles, etc have treated subjugated Ukrainians in the past?

“Our” culture, buddy, is European Ukrainian culture. Yours is combined Russian-Jewish half-bred.

1. Being Polish, I do see some things about Russians which I consider "Asiatic", ergo "non-European" - but the problem is, I see something similiar in Ukrainians - on a smaller scale, but I do think it's there.

2. What factors do you find in Ukrainian culture that make it "European", in contrast with Russian culture?

Those guys were about the other lands and other nations. We are about our land and our nation.

How is the current situation with Odessa different than the past situation with different parts of present Ukraine ruled by Poles, Russians, Austrians, etc?

If the city is established by bloody monster that destroyed the independence of Ukraine and murdered thousands of Ukrainians, we have not any moral right to set monuments to such beasts.

What about the pro-UPA monuments in Western Ukraine, honoring war-criminals who also murdered thousands of people?
Is the "moral right" different in that case, because the murdered ones were not Ukrainians?

You are complete ignoramus. Jews are the only ones who consider Stephan Bandera as nazi now. He is sincere Ukrainian, the best son and real hero of Ukraine.

1. The ideology of OUN was a form of fascism and had many similiarities with nazism.

2. Considering the war crimes that Bandera's subordinates did commit, I find calling him "best son of Ukraine" discomforting.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Hello Michael,

I admit you overcame yourself in controversy this time. You are like king Midas- when you touch the thing, it becomes controversial.

You got some weak points in my argumentation, sorry friend, just three bocals of expensive "Cabernet" wine in the bar before, let it be... but I can't figure out your entire ideology.

It seems you just try to spot the contradictions. This everything is my subjective evaluation, first of all. It's not inter-subjective though I want it to be very much.

We know you as rather anti-Russian guy so I don't understand, why you defend this agressive minority. An "knight's move"?

Let's begin.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Do you notice that [in this aspect] you want to treat them (the Russian minority) EXACTLY in the same way in which Russians, Poles, etc have treated subjugated Ukrainians in the past?

Yes, right. Agree. Sometimes we behaive ourselves as bad guys. Is it possible to be an angel all the time? Sometimes Ukrainians are just tired to be the angels.

Being Polish, I do see some things about Russians which I consider "Asiatic", ergo "non-European" - but the problem is, I see something similiar in Ukrainians - on a smaller scale, but I do think it's there.

I think it's a king of shauvinistic line "West-East". Germans who are westerners in comparison with Poles, consider Poles as asiatic non-europeans. That's your lovely relativity theory.

What factors do you find in Ukrainian culture that make it "European", in contrast with Russian culture?

Bigger level of democracy and freedom of speach. It's no always examplary here with human rights but - do you see? - I say it bluntly.

How is the current situation with Odessa different than the past situation with different parts of present Ukraine ruled by Poles, Russians, Austrians, etc?

As George Michael sings, "its the same just the same". We got them and now we make them Ukrainians. Let they lament. It's Ukraine already.

What about the pro-UPA monuments in Western Ukraine, honoring war-criminals who also murdered thousands of people?
Is the "moral right" different in that case, because the murdered ones were not Ukrainians?

This is point where we never will agree. I think they are heroes which fought for independence against Poles, Russians, Germans, etc... If Poles or Jews think they are war criminals, it doesn't matter very much, I really don't care. Don't forget all the honored military heroes are war criminals in reality - only thing which differs them is big bright medals given by happy crying Motherland.

So Motherland gave UPA warriors big bright medals.