Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

The most important thing is everyone sees now Poles threw out the fictive masks of Ukrainian friends and opened their real faces – ugly faces of Ukraine-haters and anti-Ukrainian chauvinists. This is my biggest impressions – Poles are moved here by zoologic hate to Ukrainians and this makes all this talks so biased… oh mommy, Ukrainians killed few occupants.

Perhaps if your awareness would be a little wider, you would notice that many people all around the world, not only Poles, tend to react negatively to:

1) Mass murder of civilians
2) Glorification of organisations which commited mass murder of civilians
3) Primitive way of adressing the issue of #1, like your sentence "oh mommy, Ukrainians killed few occupants"

The initial crime was occupation and so the other events are out of any moral frames.

Your point of view is your personal point of view, meanwhile, the UPA soldiers who took part in the massacres were war criminals according to the international law.

Poles were occupants and they killed Ukrainian civilians. Ukrainians struggled against occupation and they killed Polish civilians… so Ukrainians have BIG moral advantage.

"BIG moral advantage" - perhaps according to the morality of some savage tribes in Africa, where a shaman with a animal bone in his nose prays to pagan spirits.

Normal people from normal countries AND the international law call people who do such things "war criminals", instead of talking about "big moral advantage".

Also, you seem to forget that the Poles did NOT mass murder Ukrainians when they had the chance to do so (20-30s).

And how about mass ethnic cleansings of Ukrainian civilian population by “armed Polish (or non-Polish) formations like for example AK or LWP”?

Obviously, I do not feel it would be correct to call them "heroes".

I never heard Ukrainians ever put the army into Crimea. It was gifted by Russia in 50th of XX. So Russians took it from Turkey in 18 century, then they possessed it and then their Hrushov gifted it to Ukrainian SSR, quite legally and peacefully.

1. Russia took that land by force from the Turks and Tatars, so it was not Russia's to give. In most countries, if you will buy and receive as a gift a stolen car, the car will taken away by the police, it does't matter that you did't steal it yourself.

2. Do you apply the same logic you have described above to the likewise legal Polish aquisition of the Halych-Volhynia kingdom?

It's interesting how you find the aquistion of Crimea justified because it's "legal", while in the past you have spoken about how Poland occupied for example Lviv during the Commonwealth - but wait, Casimir the Great was the legal heir to the throne of Halych-Volhynia - does it mean it was justified also in your opinion?

Make up your mind and choose one of these two options:

1) Poland occupied Galicia and Volhynia during the Commonwealth and before. Ukraine occupies Crimea.

2) Poland did not occupy Galicia and Volhynia during the Commonwealth and before, but held those lands legally. Ukraine does not occupy Crimea, but helds it legally.

Unlike that, Poles put the military forces to Halych and Volun in 1920 directly so that was direct occupation.

Well, what about the Polish rights to these lands obtained by the Polish king Casimir the Great according to the UKRAINIAN laws of the UKRAINIAN kingdom of Halych-Volhynia?

I can’t see any comparisons between bloody massacres of Ukrainian women and kids conducted by cranky AK murderers and legal transition of land inside the USSR.

Correction #1: AK did't murder Ukrainian civilians before UPA started to kill Polish civilians.

Correction #2: Present situation of Tatars in Crimea is very similiar to the situation of Ukrainians in the 20s in Poland.

Yes, of course. Everyone who communicated with Poles for sure finds majority of them "psychopatic".

And that is spoken by a citizen of a country which honors murderers of women and children as "heroes"? Very interesting.

So why did AK kill thousands of Ukrainians? Wasn’t that ethnic cleansing?

Of course not - these were revenge killings, unlike the UPA's premeditated ethnic cleansing action of "leave these lands or die".

I actually meant mazurs – numerous settlers from central Poland which arrived since 1920.

In reality, the settlers were only a part of the Polish population of Volyn and since they were the more educated part, many of them got hit by NKVD during the initial Soviet occupation in 1939 - the UPA's mass murders mostly hit innocent peasants.

Why the criminal occupation has to be moral and struggle of Ukrainians against bloody occupants for freedom is not moral?

I see you are still having trouble with understanding a difference between two completely different kinds of actions:

1) Struggle against Polish armed forces.
2) Butchering of Polish women and children.

I'm not an expert on Ukrainian culture and moral thought, so I'd like to inquire - do Ukrainians distinguish between fighting armed opponents and murdering civilians, or do they think it's the same?

Such statements I already kicked off talking about ideology but you prefer not to see that and repeat your accusations as dumb parrot. In reality AK and other Polish murderers are guilty in same bloody actions or even bigger ones so their ideology of occupation was even more criminal.

1) There is absolutely no proof that the AK did any intentional ethnic cleansing, while there is lots of such proof in the case of UPA.

2) UPA murdered much more people than AK, BTW these were not only Poles, but also Ukrainians.

You lost the discussion as born looser so you try to direct it to other side. Paltry attempt. You are bitten and have not what to say in essence already. A sucker’s trick, ho-ho.

I'm trying to direct your attention to the fact that you are using completely different norms vs Ukrainians and vs non-Ukrainians.

Really? Find some AK veterans and made them admit to some specific war crime - like "I did kill Ukrainian civilians in the village of X" - and see what will happen.

Exactly the same - both UPA and AK war criminals could be still arrested and sentenced.

You try to justify Polish partisans-occupants as AK for murders of Ukrainian civilians. What is Christian or European here?

Actually,I do not have problem using the term "war criminals" vs neither AK neither UPA soldiers who commited mass murder of civilians, so where is the justification?

Look, you hate and despise Ukrainians, its obvious.

Which Ukrainians? Those from the West, who think the UPA were heroes? Those from the East, who (correctly) think that the UPA were fascists and war criminals?

Why do you think I hate the second kind?

But if everything is so badly and ugly why do you look for company on this board among the nation you hate so much? Just get lost and be happy.

1. I do not hate the nation, although I hate the pro-UPA fascists who think that mass murder of Polish civilians is something that is done by "heroes".

2. I do not look for "company", I look for contact with a foreign culture.

[Max_the_Highlander]

If to take the animal's hate to Ukraine and outstanding nerdiness, then mix it in blender and then splash out on message board, we will get the posts of this user here.

They smell exactly this way.

I could talk a long of time about Ukraine-hating and nerdiness but as folksy saying says, the rubber woman is the best friend of a nerd.

Now about the topic.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

Which Ukrainians? Those from the West, who think the UPA were heroes? Those from the East, who (correctly) think that the UPA were fascists and war criminals?...

I do not hate the nation, although I hate the pro-UPA fascists who think that mass murder of Polish civilians is something that is done by "heroes".

So how will you deal with the simple fact the President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko, the World's recognised democrat and liberal, rehabilitated the OUN/UPA soldiers by his very own edict?

Yes, Victor Yushchenko personally signed the edict, then he gave the honorary military title to Roman Shuhevich, the OUN leader and colonel, and then he insisted the Stephan Bandera's picture to be hung in SBU's gallery of national heroes.

So how about that?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

So how will you deal with the simple fact the President of Ukraine Victor Yushchenko, the World's recognised democrat and liberal, rehabilitated the OUN/UPA soldiers by his very own edict?

Deal in what aspect? Yushchenko is a politician, not a historian, it tells a lot about Yushchenko, but it does't mean anything when it comes to UPA.

Most likely, as most politicians, Yushchenko cares about political power and he prefered [politically] profitable ignorance about UPA's crimes over costly confrontation with the ugly truth.

The "Blue" Ukrainians would never believe him, even if he would condemn UPA - but criticising UPA or even ignoring the issue would make him lose support of the more pro-fascist Western Ukrainians - political calculation is simple in this case,


BTW It's nice to know that you were unable to answer my question regarding the use of the same standarts and Crimea vs Halych/Volhynia, propably because it creates friction in your chauvinistic belief system, so I will repeat the question once more:

It's interesting how you find the aquistion of Crimea justified because it was "legal", while in the past you have spoken about how Poland "occupied" for example Lviv during the Commonwealth - but wait, Casimir the Great was the legal heir to the throne of Halych-Volhynia - does it mean it was justified also in your opinion?

Make up your mind and choose one of these two options:

1) Poland occupied Galicia and Volhynia during the Commonwealth and before. Ukraine occupies Crimea.

2) Poland did not occupy Galicia and Volhynia during the Commonwealth and before, but held those lands legally. Ukraine does not occupy Crimea, but helds it legally.

I could talk a long of time about Ukraine-hating and nerdiness but as folksy saying says, the rubber woman is the best friend of a nerd.

Typical primitive attack by projection of sexual frustrations over a superior opponent in a discussion.


Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

No I can easily kick off all the "superior attacks". They are quite kiddish as for me.

For now though I have two questions:

1. Yushchenko perfectly knows about heroic struggle of UPA on anti-Polish front in details because he has dozens of advisors and referents and all archives are open for him. Do you think Yushchenko is "pro-UPA fascist" because he gave the posthumous title The Hero of Ukraine to Roman Shuhevich?


2. Previously you twice wrote primitive Hoebbels-styled lie about UPA soldiers ordered Ukrainian peasants to kill their Polish spouces. I asked twice to give me any proofs but you avoided it twice.

So will you finally give any proofs or will we consider this as blackmail attempt?

[Zbyszek]

This is your Ukrainian nationalism

╚б.чЫЕМЙН, ХМХЖХХПСЧЫХИ ОПХГМЮМХЕ нсм-сою, ОНЯРСОЮЕР МЕЛНПЮКЭМН╩

вСФЮЪ ОНАЕДЮ?


Polishchuk ('Bitter truth - confession of a Ukrainian'): V 1941 - 1950 godakh, tozhe varvarskimi metodami, banderovcy istrebili, po men▓shej mere, 80 000 ukrainskogo grazhdanskogo naselenija.
[In the years 1941-1950, applying the same barbaric methods, the banderites killed at least 80 000 (eighty thousand) Ukrainian civilians]

Hirka pravda - a Ukrainian version of the book is available of course - add it to your scientific collection Max. I can send it to you.
(licking is nothing, compared to swallowing the bitter truth and Polishchuk is Ukrainian, not Russian - he is a serious, conscious researcher and not an extremist)
SHOCK! SHOCK! SHOCK!

[Max_the_Highlander]

Hmmm... this is what surprises me last time...

Poles lick the Russian boots with such verfour I feel the splashes on my face sitting in front of my big LCD monitor.

[Max_the_Highlander]

I never saw before as user replies to my post via editing his previous post and rewriting it completely, changing the sense. It's the new way of discussion, how about the paten?

Yep, those Russians are strange guys.

Polishchuk is not Ukrainian in social sense because he is excommunicated by Ukrainian Canadian community. And the only reason is he is well-paid Kremlin agent.

This is supported in Ukraine, btw. Note in article you provided Kremlin hireling Polishchuk speaks Russian. It's the language of his masters and customers, actually.