Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Zbyszek]

It is not only about Katyn... it is about how propaganda is fabricated as based on 'genuine' historic source.
In this proganada film Grodna appears as Ukrainian town.

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YouTube - Katyn see Russian propaganda film about Katyn.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

You didn’t explain why we need to consider events hanging on thin air, without historic settings and motives. The biggest reason for all anti-Polish actions is Polis occupation of Ukrainian lands. Every criminal should be ready to knock with resistance. So UPA resisted the occupation and just. This in natural right, it has nothing to do with war crimes. It’s heroism.

Actually I'd agree with that - but only as far as UPA's fight against non-civilians is concerned - I have nothing against UPA's fight with armed Polish (or non-Polish) formations like for example AK or LWP - the ethnic cleansing of Polish civilian population is another thing though.

No the real reason was illegal criminal occupation of Ukrainian lands and extremist /psychopatic nature of Polish government and mere Poles.

1. The occupation of Ukrainian lands was not less legal than the current Ukrainian occupation of Crimea. I wonder if you will find the honesty to stop the double standarts and admit that.

2. Poland and Poles had overhelming power advantage over Ukrainians in the 30s - and did't opress them to full extent, did't mass murder them as Soviets did - and you call Poles "psychopatic"?

Also we know about AK slaughters of Ukrainian civilians - how about extremist /psychopatic nature of AK leaders?

AFAR, AK did't ever try to establish a ethnically homogenous Poland - such political thought never appeared neither in AK neither in the London goverment-in-exile that controlled it.

Occupants come and make crimes. Nation rises against them and kills them. The moral superiority is on the side of OUN/UPA.

1. What about Ukrainians murdered by OUN/UPA? For example Ukrainian spouses who did't agree with the killing of their husbands/wives?

2. The Polish peasants lived there for centuries and were hardly occupants - while the Polish military settlers had been in turn largely taken by the NKVD already.

3. You seem to have a very..."original" vision of morality, going against anything which might be called "Christian" or "European" legal and moral though.

For all crimes against Poles, the Poles are responsible alone - they began the occupation so that was initial crime which caused the rest of violence.

People who study the nature of genocide claim that almost invariably, the last stages of genocide are denial and blaming the victim. You (and other Western Ukrainians) are like those Turks who claims that the Armenian Genocide either did't happen or that the Armenians deserved it.

BTW, I'd like to repeat one question: if Crimean Tatars would start murdering Ukrainian civilians, would you also claim that these were the Ukrainians who are responsible for that, due to the occupation of Crimea by Ukraine?

It’s not proven. Bigger part of those Polish settlers came since 1920 from central Poland (so called mazurs) so it was direct result of occupation,

The Polish settlers, or the Polish peasants? These were two distinct groups.

As about any comparisons of OUN with modern terrorists, it’s another nasty distortion. We have not to take the things out the context of 40th. In proper historic context, the OUN/UPA activity is similar with activities of French partisans.

Did the French partisans specialise in murdering German civilians?

UPA was most similiar to German SS, Soviet NKVD and Croatian Ustashe, while OUN could be compared to ETA or IRA.

Every occupation is extremism a priory, without other additional conditions required.

So...what do you think about the present Ukrainian occupation of Crimea? Judging of what you have written about nations,occupations, etc, one might suspect it would be consisent for you to call the Ukrainian occupation of Crimea "extremism" also.

Let the Poland drive to Ukraine any appeal and so those events will be acknowledged officially as war crimes. But it is not so for now so they are free to say everything they want

Really? Find some UPA veterans and made them admit to some specific war crime - like "I did kill Polish civilians in the village of X" - and see what will happen.

Btw, your lament about killed Poles doesn’t influence me – I feel not any drop of sympathy to any murdered occupants, if they are they military people or civilians.

Ok, you belong to the sphere of Russian/Ukrainian (Asian) culture and such views are natural for you.

What is date of this order, who gave that (person), where is the original of document contained now, whom it was acknowledged as real by?

Good question - perhaps I will research it myself.


Michael

[Max_the_Highlander]

The most important thing is everyone sees now Poles threw out the fictive masks of Ukrainian friends and opened their real faces – ugly faces of Ukraine-haters and anti-Ukrainian chauvinists. This is my biggest impressions – Poles are moved here by zoologic hate to Ukrainians and this makes all this talks so biased… oh mommy, Ukrainians killed few occupants.

So what?

The initial crime was occupation and so the other events are out of any moral frames. Poles were occupants and they killed Ukrainian civilians. Ukrainians struggled against occupation and they killed Polish civilians… so Ukrainians have BIG moral advantage.

If now in 2008 Poles came to Ukraine as armed occupants I would kill them as well.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

formations like for example AK or LWP - the ethnic cleansing of Polish civilian population is another thing though.

And how about mass ethnic cleansings of Ukrainian civilian population by “armed Polish (or non-Polish) formations like for example AK or LWP”?

The occupation of Ukrainian lands was not less legal than the current Ukrainian occupation of Crimea.

I never heard Ukrainians ever put the army into Crimea. It was gifted by Russia in 50th of XX. So Russians took it from Turkey in 18 century, then they possessed it and then their Hrushov gifted it to Ukrainian SSR, quite legally and peacefully.

Unlike that, Poles put the military forces to Halych and Volun in 1920 directly so that was direct occupation. I can’t see any comparisons between bloody massacres of Ukrainian women and kids conducted by cranky AK murderers and legal transition of land inside the USSR.

and you call Poles "psychopatic"?

Yes, of course. Everyone who communicated with Poles for sure finds majority of them "psychopatic".

AFAR, AK did't ever try to establish a ethnically homogenous Poland - such political thought never appeared neither in AK neither in the London goverment-in-exile that controlled it.

So why did AK kill thousands of Ukrainians? Wasn’t that ethnic cleansing?

UPA never conducted ethnic cleansing of Jews which were working inside the UPA, and in case with Poles, they just killed the occupants and just. They deserve the biggest and heaviest medals for this.

What about Ukrainians murdered by OUN/UPA? For example Ukrainian spouses who did't agree with the killing of their husbands/wives?

I require proofs.

The Polish peasants lived there for centuries and were hardly occupants - while the Polish military settlers had been in turn largely taken by the NKVD already.

I actually meant mazurs – numerous settlers from central Poland which arrived since 1920.

You seem to have a very..."original" vision of morality, going against anything which might be called "Christian" or "European" legal and moral though.

Why the criminal occupation has to be moral and struggle of Ukrainians against bloody occupants for freedom is not moral?

UPA was most similiar to German SS, Soviet NKVD and Croatian Ustashe, while OUN could be compared to ETA or IRA.

Such statements I already kicked off talking about ideology but you prefer not to see that and repeat your accusations as dumb parrot. In reality AK and other Polish murderers are guilty in same bloody actions or even bigger ones so their ideology of occupation was even more criminal.

So...what do you think about the present Ukrainian occupation of Crimea?

You lost the discussion as born looser so you try to direct it to other side. Paltry attempt. You are bitten and have not what to say in essence already. A sucker’s trick, ho-ho.

Really? Find some UPA veterans and made them admit to some specific war crime - like "I did kill Polish civilians in the village of X" - and see what will happen.

Really? Find some AK veterans and made them admit to some specific war crime - like "I did kill Ukrainian civilians in the village of X" - and see what will happen.

Ok, you belong to the sphere of Russian/Ukrainian (Asian) culture and such views are natural for you.

You try to justify Polish partisans-occupants as AK for murders of Ukrainian civilians. What is Christian or European here?

Poles are hated by the rest of Europe. Germans hate you. Russians hate you. Ukrainians hate you. Nice Europeans, huh?

If Germans for example occupied Poland second time, we would perform standing ovation here.

Look, you hate and despise Ukrainians, its obvious. But you visit this board to drink the juices of Ukrainian community. You have not friends here because I hate you same as others. You were obstructed by users here previously and they will obstruct the main Ukraine-hater once again soon, for sure.

But if everything is so badly and ugly why do you look for company on this board among the nation you hate so much? Just get lost and be happy.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Poles are hated by the rest of Europe. Germans hate you. Russians hate you. Ukrainians hate you. Nice Europeans, huh?

If Germans for example occupied Poland second time, we would perform standing ovation here.

...

Max, do not lose control.

The major quarrel flame is whether the UPA truly represented Ukrainian nation. I do hope NOT regardless of what you say. And I know for sure that millions of Ukrainians think the same. Dr Polishchuk accented this many times. A terrorist army like UPA can never be a national army. It was a fraction army and it stays such in minds and hearts of many Ukrainian people

There is no such doubt in Poland about the AK.

And I would never wish your nation any repetition of historical misfortune.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Originally Posted by Zbyszek

A terrorist army like UPA can never be a national army.

The term "terrorism" suits better the military forces of Poland which occupied the lands of Western-Ukrainian People's Republic in 1920 and they tried to maintain the occupation in fourties. As about OUN/UPA, we commonly use definition "military movement of national liberation". And this means liberation from opressors of all kinds, including Poles.

If your AK was such deeply national, what did it do on our deeply national lands?

I don't think heroes who defended native land from occupants cared about how much those occupants are supported in own motherland.

[Zbyszek]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

...

If your AK was such deeply national, what did it do on our deeply national lands?
...

DO not make too much of it MAx. Home Army (AK) operated mainly in Poland proper and the Germans were our major (and almost only) enemy. The Soviets were not regarded as direct enemies. Ukrainians were not counted as enemies at all.
Please remember, Poland's western border was drawn not on Vistula.

[Max_the_Highlander]

???

"Mainly operated on Polish lands", OK. But Halych, Volyn and other Western Ukrainian lands were considered by AK as Polish lands.

This is real reason for guerilla conflict 1943-45. OUN/UPA considered these lands as Ukrainian, as lands of future "united Ukrainian republic".

While soldiers were directed by political motives, Ukrainian peasants wanted to get taken away lands back.

And so we've got what we've got.