Help in Kyiv, Odesa, Lviv - Moved to History

[Max_the_Highlander]

So go off with your paltry Volyn and all those "killed" kids and chicks. Less drugs, more health. I also never saw any documents on Ukrainian except few discrepant comments of our guys. And may be they have rich imagination?

The thread is closed I guess. What are we talking about? No documents on Ukrainian so just shut up.

[bm-21Lemko]

In March of that year the Interior Military (Wojska Wewnetrzne) murdered about 540 people in Stary Lublinets; in April - 400 people in Goraj. In March the peasant self-defense in cooperation with some forest detachment murdered about 300 Ukrainians in Pawlokoma, while in Piskorovychi - a detachment of the NSZ slaughtered some 400 Ukrainians, readied for resettlement. Another detachment of the NSZ attacked the village of Verkhovyna in June of 1945 and murdered some 200 people, including 65 children. There were numerous cases of murdering Ukrainian Catholic and Ukrainian Orthodox priests, together usually with their families. In this way some 30 priests perished. In the neighborhood of Majdan Sieniawski it happened that a Polish military detachment or a band murdered a Roman Catholic priest, a Pole, who condemned those murders committed upon the Ukrainians. According to the UBP, from March to June 1945, the Polish underground and other detachments killed over 1500 Ukrainians.

[bm-21Lemko]

In Terka, where on July 9, 1946, the Polish military murdered by grenades around 30 Ukrainians locked up in one of the village huts as hostages.

"Slava Ukraina" ("Glory to Ukraine")

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

I decidedly protest against nasty outrageous distortions which come from this biased user. UPA didn’t struggle against civilians, mentioned 2 excesses were incidents

These were not "2 excesses", these were a series of premeditated ethnic cleansing and mass murder of civilians conducted by UPA - did you miss the larger part of this thread?

So this is direct question: does mass murders of 15 000 of Ukrainians by AK fall into “excessive” category or into category “acceptable everyday Polish reality”?

Direct answer:

1) It was mass murder of civilians.
2) It was a war crime, making people responsible for it war criminals.

This is when we have another attempt of distortion and see who really has lack of knowledge. I suggest to overall consideration chapter of “specialized outcomes” named “Ideology of Ukrainian Nationalists”.
(...)
In ideology, outlook and political practice of UPA were present some elements which made it similar with radical and totalitarian movements and regimes,

This in effect is a proof that the bias of the person writing it - I mean the phrase "similiar with radical and totalitarian movements and regimes" - OUN *was* itself a radical and totalitarian regime, the author of that text obviously prefers do dodge and avoid the direct truth.


If we consider the set of external and functional traits in certain period of OUN existence (for example, the cult of chief, the will to set the one-party rule, building the strict party hierarchy, giving the ideology the traits of religious outlook) so we could equate this organization with Soviet totalitarism.

Both AK and UPA cooperated with or fought against Germany depending on situation.

1. So why did you call UPA "anti-fascists" and AK "pro-fascist"?

2. The level of cooperation and hostility vs Germany was not the same in the case of (Polish)London Goverment/AK and OUN/UPA - in the first case, the London Goverment was at war with Germany all the time, while in the second, many OUN leaders served as Nazi agents, organised Nazi-led Ukrainian formations, etc etc.

As about another portion of yellow papers from our archives so as I said earlier I dont trust the AK documents at all. They are not trustworthy evidence for me. AK is covered with blood of Ukrainian civilians from top to toe. Ukrainian auxiliary police was Nazi structure and so it has not any relation at all to discussed above OUN/UPA.

1. As I said before, the fact that you automatically disbelieve Polish sources, but believe Ukrainian ones, shows that you have no objectivity at all - and that perhaps you simply *want* to believe the sources which portray UPA in positive light.

2. OUN/UPA had lots of ties with the Ukrainian Auxiliary police - first of all, many UPA soldiers were ex-policemen, who were already war criminals when fleeing to the forests to join UPA.

So I have no any plans to discuss them over again. I warn you again: don't write to me the novels, make your messages short and to the point.

This is a complicated, important topic, if you can't read adequately detailed posts, then why bother at all?

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

In fall of 1943 on the entire the area of General governorship except the Halych Polish underground conducted mass murders of Germans and Ukrainians, accordingly to order of commandant of Armia Krajowa T. Komorovsky. In Hrebushevsky and Tomashivsky regions Poles burnt till June 1944 150 Ukrainian villages and murdered 15 000 of Ukrainians.

Isn't it cruel murder of civilians or what? Weren't they kids, elderly and women? Why don't you call this a crime?

I require the direct answer.

1)Direct answer: yes, murder of Ukrainian civilians by AK and Polish auxiliary police was a war crime.

2) What order of Komorovsky/Komorowski do you mean?

So go off with your paltry Volyn and all those "killed" kids and chicks. Less drugs, more health. I also never saw any documents on Ukrainian except few discrepant comments of our guys. And may be they have rich imagination?

The thread is closed I guess. What are we talking about? No documents on Ukrainian so just shut up.

Both use of such language and the fact that this issue is still denied - not just by you individually, but by many Western Ukrainians, is strong example of cultural and moral degeneration prevalent in Western Ukraine.

[Max_the_Highlander]

Listen you both. If I write my reply to any one of you, let other one do not comment it. This is brutal way to double the efforts of opponent. I have no any wish and I have not time to explain the matter two times. So keep your lines separately.

I come in this discussion from:

Monograph “Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army”, authors ДЗЬОБАК Володимир Васильович, ІЛЬЮШИН Ігор Іванович, КАСЬЯНОВ Георгій Володимирович, КЕНТІЙ Анатолій Вікторович, КУЛЬЧИЦЬКИЙ Станіслав Владиславович, ЛИСЕНКО Олександр Євгенович, ПАТРИЛЯК Іван Казимирович.

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/index.htm

Specialized outcomes “Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army”.

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/oun/index.htm

The biggest review of Polish-Ukrainian military conflicts of the time:

http://history.org.ua/oun_upa/upa/16.pdf

Institution: Historian’s working group of governmental commission for research of OUN/UPA activity.

http://history.org.ua/0/?l=p.o


I don’t consider any other sources as trustworthy ones including Wiki pages of all kinds, “independent” Indiana Joneses of history, AK “reports” btw written on Polish which I don’t understand.

Such information may be forged and may be not. However, if information came through the hands of professional historians, working in official institutions, I tend to believe it.

There is need to separate politically biased journalists and professional educated historians. Point.

I know just about two large cases mentioned in specialized outcomes (attack on 7 colonies, then 167 villages) and there is not any information about other large events of this kind so I can’t support the idea they ever existed.

On the other side, it’s solid fact there was long war between Ukrainian and Polish partisans, policies, self-defenses etc. It’s very probable during this long guerilla war many civilians were killed, but from both sides (remarks of bm-21Lemko support that).

As about Hrubeshuvsky region, the 15 000 Ukrainians were murdered accordingly to order of T. Komorovsky (alias Bur), AK commandant, from 4 August of 1943.

Originally Posted by MichaelB_PL

This in effect is a proof that the bias of the person writing it - I mean the phrase "similiar with radical and totalitarian movements and regimes" - OUN *was* itself a radical and totalitarian regime

You lost the main idea some common traits does not mean total equity. Strange but it seems simple. Again, brutal mistake about OUN was regime. Regime is a kind of state rule. OUN never hold supreme state power in Ukraine, it never was the state so it couldn’t conduct any kind of regime a priory.

We see here the difference between logic of professional historian(s) and lame amateur who has not real historian education at all.

Anyway, the accusing “nationalism is fascism” is completely kicked off.

many OUN leaders served as Nazi agents, organised Nazi-led Ukrainian formations, etc etc.

This opinion is not based on any trustworthy sources and it is not supported by Ukrainian historian science. At least, I can’t find such support in works of professionals.

the fact that you automatically disbelieve Polish sources

First because of language I don’t understand second because Poles is interested biased side. I believe the version not of former participants of conflict but the version of modern professional scientist which are able to spot true documents and forged ones. My level of historic education doesn’t allow we to spot where forgery is and were truth is so I would like to give this work out to specialists.

OUN/UPA had lots of ties with the Ukrainian Auxiliary police

There were cases both of cooperation and struggle between national partisans and national auxiliary policies. For a period all members of Ukrainian auxiliary police were informators of UPA, that’s why they were disarmed and fired… logically, they joined the OUN (B) structures later. However, again I can’t find trustworthy evidences of any “broad” cooperation.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally Posted by Max_the_Highlander

Institution: Historian’s working group of governmental commission for research of OUN/UPA activity.

Ok, so what does this working group say about the mass murders of Polish civilians?

You yourself have posted an ultimatum:

"“Currently our administration leaved our posts because we want Germans to have not access to our villages and so they will not kill us as it was before. You were first who agreed to take our place and now you help Germans with their gangsters work. You are the blind tool in hands of Germans, which is being used against us. But remember if Polish community will not influence those ones who came into administration, police and other institutions to leave them, the anger of Ukrainian people will be directed against Poles who live on Ukrainian lands. Every our burnt village, every Ukrainian murdered because of your fault will be revenged.”"

<- and I claim that the threats presented in this ultimatum were put into practice.
You however then write that "UPA did't struggle against civilians", even though the very ultimatum you've posted fits perfectly into the Polish claim of war crimes vs civilians.

I don’t consider any other sources as trustworthy ones

Most people who think that the Katyn Massacre was not done by Russians, are...Russian.

Most people who think that the Armenian Genocide did not happen, or was not fault of the Turks....are Turks.

Most of the people who think that UPA did not murder Polish civilians, or that it did, but it was not UPA's fault....are Ukrainian.

Do you think that the Ukrainians are somehow inherently superior in this aspect, somehow better than Russians or Turks?

Such information may be forged and may be not. However, if information came through the hands of professional historians, working in official institutions, I tend to believe it.

So what about the Polish official instiution - the IPN (ipn.gov.pl)?

There is need to separate politically biased journalists and professional educated historians. Point.

1. Do you recognize the possibility that the Ukrainian historians can be politically biased as much as historians of any other nationality?

2. What about (for example) Timothy Snyder, a Yale University historian who claims that UPA butchered thousands of Polish civilians in cold blood?

On the other side, it’s solid fact there was long war between Ukrainian and Polish partisans, policies, self-defenses etc. It’s very probable during this long guerilla war many civilians were killed, but from both sides (remarks of bm-21Lemko support that).

I'm not denying that civilians were killed on the both sides, no doubt about it.

As about Hrubeshuvsky region, the 15 000 Ukrainians were murdered accordingly to order of T. Komorovsky (alias Bur), AK commandant, from 4 August of 1943.

Can you cite the order? (English translation of Ukrainian translation would be enough)

You lost the main idea some common traits does not mean total equity. Strange but it seems simple. Again, brutal mistake about OUN was regime. Regime is a kind of state rule. OUN never hold supreme state power in Ukraine, it never was the state so it couldn’t conduct any kind of regime a priory.

What I wanted to say is simply this:

1) [at least in 1943 and before] the OUN was not any kind of democratic freedom-fighters, there had more in common with the Nazis and Communists then with democratic political movements.

2) The OUN accepted terrorism and ethnic-based violence directed at civilians as a viable way of operation.

Anyway, the accusing “nationalism is fascism” is completely kicked off.

I never said that. What I wanted to say is that: the term "nationalism" is an inadequate description, OUN's nationalism was a very extremist, pathological sub-type of nationalism.

This opinion is not based on any trustworthy sources and it is not supported by Ukrainian historian science. At least, I can’t find such support in works of professionals.

What do those professionals write about OUN's political nature?

My level of historic education doesn’t allow we to spot where forgery is and were truth is so I would like to give this work out to specialists.

1. Ok, so Timothy Snyder is a professional and a non-Pole - will you believe him?

2. Specialists, like any other men, can be subjected to for example political pressure.

There were cases both of cooperation and struggle between national partisans and national auxiliary policies. For a period all members of Ukrainian auxiliary police were informators of UPA, that’s why they were disarmed and fired… logically, they joined the OUN (B) structures later. However, again I can’t find trustworthy evidences of any “broad” cooperation.

The issue is not about cooperation, I wrote about "ties", in that sense that OUN/UPA got joined by thousands of Ukrainian ex-policemen - Ukrainians who already took part in the Holocaust.

The reason for which I'm mentioning this is to simply make you aware that the rosy image "democratic freedom-fighters" is very far from truth - and that UPA was a rather unsavioury place, with thousands of members who already took part in a genocide, even before 1943.




Michael