Contradictions of historians

[zhuk]

Modern Ukrainian historian - professor from Dnepropetrovsk University
Storozhenko I.S. in his book "Liberation Ukrainian-Poland war of 1648-1651" makes a very detailed and thorough description of the military actions and tactics of both armies. Very good reading.
He states that Poland army has taken they tactic of great moving camps from Ukrainian cossacks. who traditionally used it while invading Crimea.

The Polish author Zamoyskii in his modern book "The Polish Way" states quite the contrary. He states that, famous hetman Tarnovskii in 1550 in his book of advices to the hetmans and warchiefs describes very well the same tactic and organisation of the moving military camp.

In my opinion, Tarnovski was still the first. In the years 1530-1550 cossack movements in ukraine was not too well developed.

the second contradiction - is the famous picture of some Ukrainian master "Jarema Wishnievetski is fighting Maxim Krivonos".
Most of the historians both Ukrainian, Russian and Polish say that there could not be such a duel or hertz between these people.
The picture itself presents count Wishniewetski very ugly and covardly defending himself, while retreating.
All the history events states the contrary.
is anybody interested in these facts?

[johncullen]

zhuk, sorry i can't join in on this topic, as i have no ideas to put forward, and know little or nothing about that period.

[Jarema]

Naturaly, I have to respond, given my nickname.


Jeremi (Jarema) Wisniowiecki was in my opinion the defender of all good Rusyns.

Do you agree ?

J

[zhuk]

Count Jeremii Michal Wishniewetski in my opinion was the greatest figure in Ukraine in 17th century.
He has staied loyal to the king and his motherland on the contrary to Bogdan Chmelnitski.
Count Wishniewetski has saved thousands lives of jews and nobles and many simple, but literate men, again to the contrary to Chmelnitsky, (who has permitted to kill in thousands).

The raid of count W-tsky from Lubny to Pereyaslav, then to Chernigov, and then to Litva and then back to Konstantinow was quite the same way as it was for Russins White guard and general Kornilov in 1918.

I consider him a real hero and in description of the civil war in 1648-1651 there are plenty of common features to the civil war in Russia in 1918-1921.
This man has done to his country more than any of the 17th century and he has died in his just 39 years old.
It is a pity, that mass murderer chmelnitsky is a hero of ukrainian history textbooks and nearly no one remember count Wishniewetski.

[Zbyszek]

I am an absolute beginner in this discussion. I read some contributions on the Polish-Ukrainian relations and I was dissapointed with the prevalence of all negative statements, the mutual blaming. My English is surely imperfect as I am a Pole born in Poland (Warszawa)and I hope to improve it. I have been only for a few days to Britain and I have never been to the USA, Canada or any other English-speaking country. What I would like to introduce here is the largest possible set of good examples for the peaceful Polish-Ukrainian co-existence throughut the ages. Rzeczpospolita, the powerful multi-national East-European state which existed for more than three centuries (XV-XVIIIth cent.) cannot be regarded as the exclusive Polish property. This Polish approach can not be fully historically justified and makes a lot of trouble. Let us explain that this country was ruled by many kings, the most of the were not Polish. The country was based on the surprisingly democratic principles and the religious tolerance(!). There were no major national clashes between three basic nations inhabiting the vast territories of Rzeczpospolita: Lithuanians, Poles and Ruthenians(Ukrainians).
The most of troubles and unrest were caused by the foreign intervention and the oppresive Polish lords, but they concerned the peasants of all contributing nations.
The Hmyelnitzki's revolution was predominantly the social movement and attributing the predominantly national character to this bloody event surely means that we apply the XIXth century thinking to the story that had taken place two centuries earlier.
Poles and Ukrainians co-operated in many ways for centuries. Let us explore it, bring it to light and enjoy it instead of quarreling about the mutual atrocities. I bet the most of you do not know how close is the Ukrainian language to the Polish one. This is my first argument supporting my thesis of the bright Polish-Ukrainian future.

[Edited by Zbyszek on 18th July 2002 at 19:02]

[zhuk]

I agree about benefits from friendship and partrnership between both nations.
All I wanted to stress that if Ukrainians would better know their own history (actually for me it is my own, not theirs)they would better appreciate these benefits.
By now, unfortunately for any educated in history person, Bohdan Chmelnitsky and maxim krivonos are still the heroes of the official history school textbooks.
As well as bandits of Kolyywshchina in 1798- these murders and ethnic cleansing is still considered as heroic part of our history?
Is there any logic in it?

[Zbyszek]

Hello Zhuk,

You are absolutely right that the ignorance is something that can easily make one a tool in the hands of nationalists manipulating the history. That mechanism made it possible to start the bloody revolt of Hmyelnitzky by setting loose the bad emotions of poor, not educated people against Jews and the Polish gentry. The same spiral of terror enabled the success of the Bolshevik revolution.
Anyway, I woule like to remind the famous words of the Ukrainian poet - Taras Shevchenko who warned their compatriots about cheering on the Rzeczpospolita collapse. He said: the falling body of Poland can crush the Ukrainian nation. And it did crush the Ukrainians to some degree.
Revolution is the worst possible solution of solving complex social problems. I was instructed at school on all benefits of the October Revolution. The frightening results of it are still to be seen in some countries. I think much the same about the French revolution. Happily, the Ukrainian nation won its independence in a peaceful process and I am proud that Poland was one of the countries which showed the peaceful way to freedom.