Collaboration and Collusion (Truth About UPA), by Douglas Tottle

[Petro_moskal]

Ivan_Mazepa

What are we kids? "you started it" - "no you did"- "no you". Ukrainians were fighting poles since the Cossack times. I think I remember there was an assassination attempt by a Ukr. nationalist on Pilsudski.

During World War Two the UPA was the one that initiated the genocide.

But AK still did. I'm guessing UPA just had better opportunity.

No, the UPA started it. Whatever the Armia Krajowa did was a reaction.

I'm sure there were some xenophobes in UPA and I'm equally sure there were people of consience there.

I highly doubt it. They were only elevated because Ukraine lacks heroes who weren't pro-Russian.

I prefer to focus on them fighting Stalin and for independent Ukraine.

Yeah, except that their idea of "fighting Stalin" was banditry and genocide. When it came to actually fighting the Red Army and the NKVD they sufferedm ten times more casualties. Kishka tonka na nastojashchjuju vojnu byla.

[Ivan_Mazepa]

UPA massacring Poles is just a moment of Ukr-Pol. relations. It's not an independent action but part of the whole. UPA didn't start a war with poles- ukrainians were fighting with them for a thousand(!) years since Volodymyr the Great.

Volodymyr Velykyy fought Poles 10th AD- Poles take over Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke Kniazivstvo- Catholic persecution-Kozak revolts- Khmelnytsky- Haidamaky/Koliyivshyna- then Galicians fighting Poles in ww1. The war never stopped.

It's incredible but this is the first time in a millenium that Ukrainians and Poles are at peace.

[Petro_moskal]

Ivan_Mazepa

UPA massacring Poles is just a moment of Ukr-Pol. relations. It's not an independent action but part of the whole.

I'm talking about the UPA right now. The UPA started the massacres in World War II. I'm not looking at whose fault it is on a global scale.

UPA didn't start a war with poles- ukrainians were fighting with them for a thousand(!) years since Volodymyr the Great.

There were no Ukrainians back then. The East Slavs were collectively known as Russians.
And yes, I know that today's Russians are as related to them as today's Ukrainians are.

Volodymyr Velykyy fought Poles 10th AD- Poles take over Halyts'ko-Volyns'ke Kniazivstvo- Catholic persecution-Kozak revolts- Khmelnytsky- Haidamaky/Koliyivshyna- then Galicians fighting Poles in ww1. The war never stopped.

Hehe, Ukrainians in 1000 AD.

It's incredible but this is the first time in a millenium that Ukrainians and Poles are at peace.

Thanks in great part to the USSR.

[Ivan_Mazepa]

Originally posted by Petro_moskal

Thanks in great part to the USSR.

No disagreement there. It was also because of the USSR that ukrainians were reunified into one country.

[MichaelB_PL]

Originally posted by Ivan_Mazepa
But AK still did. I'm guessing UPA just had better opportunity.

[/B]

Sorry,but UPA started Genocide, AK's actions were a reaction.

BTW Poland had 'better opportunity' to murder Ukrainians in 1920-1939, but no genocide happened.

UPA 'repayed' Poland's moderation with complete lack of moderation and brutal genocide.
It murdered Poles, it murdered Ukrainians too.

Jarema Vyshnevetsky back in the 17th century demolished Uman and Podolia.It's not very constructive because we can go tete-a-tete forever.

Yes,but that's as far as Polish-Ukrainian relations go.

'UPA as UPA' is another matter. It's was a fascist organisation which murdered both Poles and Ukrainians.

Jews and other minorities like gypsies are always going to suffer during the times of trouble. That's a rule.

You are aware that they murdered Ukrainians too, I hope?

I'm sure there were some xenophobes in UPA and I'm equally sure there were people of consience there.

Listen, UPA were the Ukrainian version of Nazis, most of them were pro-genocide.

I prefer to focus on them fighting Stalin and for independent Ukraine.

But their MAIN activity and achivement was in fact murder of Polish civilians, not fighting Stalin.
Also, the Ukraine they fought for was Nazi Ukraine like Germany from the 30s, not any normal kind of country.


Michael

[MichaelB_PL]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MichaelB_PL

Originally posted by Ivan_Mazepa
But AK still did. I'm guessing UPA just had better opportunity.

Sorry,but UPA started Genocide, AK's actions were a reaction.

BTW Poland had 'better opportunity' to murder Ukrainians in 1920-1939, but no genocide happened.

UPA 'repayed' Poland's moderation with complete lack of moderation and brutal genocide.
It murdered Poles, it murdered Ukrainians too.

Jarema Vyshnevetsky back in the 17th century demolished Uman and Podolia.It's not very constructive because we can go tete-a-tete forever.

Yes,but that's as far as Polish-Ukrainian relations go.

'UPA as UPA' is another matter. It's was a fascist organisation which murdered both Poles and Ukrainians.

Jews and other minorities like gypsies are always going to suffer during the times of trouble. That's a rule.

You are aware that they murdered Ukrainians too, I hope?

I'm sure there were some xenophobes in UPA and I'm equally sure there were people of consience there.

Listen, UPA were the Ukrainian version of Nazis, most of them were pro-genocide, most of them had only Nazi consciense.

On the other hand, many Poles have been rescued from UPA genocide by non-UPA Ukrainians, despite the fact that they have risked their lives to do so.

I prefer to focus on them fighting Stalin and for independent Ukraine.

But their MAIN activity and 'achivement' was in fact murder of Polish civilians, not fighting Stalin.
Also, the Ukraine they fought for was Nazi Ukraine like Germany from the 30s, not any normal kind of country.

It's incredible but this is the first time in a millenium that Ukrainians and Poles are at peace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks in great part to the USSR.

Yes.

Still, USSR murdered millions of Ukrainians during the 30s and later, millions of Poles and Ukrainians died in a war started by USSR and it's Nazi ally.

Meanwhile, if war would not erupt, most likely Poles and Ukrainians would reach some agreement sooner or later without millions of casualties.


Michael

[Zbyszek]

Originally posted by MichaelB_PL
Sorry,but UPA started Genocide, AK's actions were a reaction.

BTW Poland had 'better opportunity' to murder Ukrainians in 1920-1939, but no genocide happened.

UPA 'repayed' Poland's moderation with complete lack of moderation and brutal genocide.
It murdered Poles, it murdered Ukrainians too.


[/B]

Michael, I think Ivan does not deny it, he only points out that Polish-Ukrainian frictions have existed for centuries.
We had good discussion about it in the other forum
http://www.ukraine.com/forums/showth...?threadid=6057
Hajdy accused me of "Polish Nazism" but his argumentation was really thin. Dr Polishchuk's reserach provides huge evidence confirming terrorist nature of the UPA. He also points out that the murdering technique used in Volhynia was quite "effective" and relatively low share of Ukrainian population was directly involved in atrocities. Many civilians were taken by surprise and foul lies. In many cases, honest Ukrainians who did not like dirty job shared the fate of butchered Poles.
Polishchuk claims that real support the UPA enjoed during WWII was overestimated by some Polish historians. Polishchuk's very nationality add much credibility to his research results.
Anyway, the celebration of Volhynian red nights' 60 anniversary in Pavlivka/Poryck last year was important breakthrough and Orange Revolution can be viewed as almost miraculous cure for mutual hostility.